Gballzack said: jorma said: Oh a baseless acusation, never get any of those.   Yea... baseless.. uhu.. and what points are those you feel you are making? I see none other than trolling and insulting people. I made a comment that you answered with "sony is europes toilet" and "when did europe ever matter in anything". Besides not even being able to spell my nick right.  Do you feel those were valid points that deserved a serious answer? I think it was closer to "sidestepping the argument and answering with shallow attacks on my vanity".   Once again. Pot Kettle Black. Twice in a row now, Gballzack. If you can provide anything in the slightest to back up your claims you're more than welcomed to but other than that all I see you doing is arguing semantics and rhetoric. If you can think of a real issue to debate or argue by all means feel free, but until then don't expect anything more than what you're contributing to this discussion: nothing. Diomedes1976 said: If you dont want Blu Ray nobody obliges you to buy 1.Stand alone player or Playstation 3 . 2.Even if you buy the Playstation 3 you dont have to buy BR films . But you will still benefit from 1.Great storage media from the BR for games . 2.Multiple localized versions of the game on the same disc and worlwide releases for some games . 3.Way greater resistence to scratchs of the format and better techology (transfer times ,it reads the whole BR instead of "Zones " ,etc ) . As for the topic itself look at this http://www.playfrance.com/news-infos-le-bluray-s-impose-en-europe.html For those of you that dont speak french I will translate it to you briefly :basically BR has 65% of the HD films sold this year in Europe and in the recent weeks the difference is growing to the point of 75% .So I guess we could say Hd-DVD is screwed worlwide by the BR .   But you can't buy a PS3 without the Blu-Ray in it though, and that's at least a 200 dollar contribution to the system's cost if not more. That's the persective of the debate. Please try and read more carefully before responding next time.

 

And you cant buy the WIi or X360 with CD if you want ,and you cant play DVD movies in the Wii,and you couldnt buy the Dreamcast with a DVD drive and so on .What are you trying to say exactly ?That you dont want PS3 ?Then whats the problem ,dont buy it all thats all .That the machine because the BR is expensive and you dont want to pay as much ?Again dont buy it ,or wait until the price drops until something wou are willing to pay .What you CANT do is to enter here and try to convince the ones that have already bought the machine or plan on doing so that they are stupid or "the toilet of Sony " because so .I thought quite hard about what machine getting .The low res graphics and control method of the Wii arent for me ,and the X360 I had some issues ;lack of japanese support outside some of the big companies (capcom and namco basically ) ,bad reliability and over all the online with its fees .The PS3 offers me a lot of things I like ,and yes between them there is  a BR drive that provides movies as you have never seen before .Plus since today the upscaling of DVD and PS1 and PS2 games .So stop bitching already ,we arent stupids ,we dont need you to decide in what to spend our money and specially if we didnt want the PS3 with its built-in BR drive we wouldnt have bought it .

jorma said: Gballzack said: jorma said: Oh a baseless acusation, never get any of those.   Yea... baseless.. uhu.. and what points are those you feel you are making? I see none other than trolling and insulting people. I made a comment that you answered with "sony is europes toilet" and "when did europe ever matter in anything". Besides not even being able to spell my nick right. Do you feel those were valid points that deserved a serious answer? I think it was closer to "sidestepping the argument and answering with shallow attacks on my vanity". Once again. Pot Kettle Black. Twice in a row now, Gballzack. If you can provide anything in the slightest to back up your claims you're more than welcomed to but other than that all I see you doing is arguing semantics and rhetoric. If you can think of a real issue to debate or argue by all means feel free, but until then don't expect anything more than what you're contributing to this discussion: nothing. I'm sorry if you are unable to respond in any meaningful way to what i said. By all means, keep trolling and keep insulting people. I can always ignore you i guess. However if you do feel that there are factual claims that i have yet to back up, please specify them in a non insulting sort of way, and never fear - i shall get right to it! I sort of doubt that you will though :X

oh do you hear that? Its the world's smallest violin playing. And you need look no further than your initial reply to see exactly what claims were ignored.

I get the "price" logic but what i dont get is why you feel you have the right to be able to build your own game console.  Sure MS tried with the core premium and elite but you still dont get to choose what you want.....i want wireless controllers with no hard drive, im out of luck, i want a hard drive but dont wanna pay for wireless controllers, out of luck, i want bundled wi fi instead of paying 100 bucks on top of my 400 console, im out of luck sure the pricing is different but i dont get where the precedent was set forcustomization of consoles.  You buy into the console never have we been able to dictate what features of a console we want and dont want so why is that any different now?

 

I wonder how many people bought a core and then realized they couldnt go online because they didnt have a HD, then had to spend 100 bucks on the HD?  How many people bought the premium and realized they needed to drop an extra 100 on wireless adapter?  Sony took a different business approach, if you dont like it whatever, but to draw off the wall conclusions about forcing consumers hands is absurd..its a single product if you dont like what teh product has to offer dont buy it. 

 

The only time you win an argument about a company forcing hands is when they have no competition and there are no rival products to substitute for what you desire.  We have PS3, PC, Wii, DS, PSP, 360 which even goes farther for GC, Xbox, GBA, PS2, PS1 for backwards compatibility.....there are so many options out there for gaming, just ebcause you dont like one of them doesnt mean your hand is forced, you have other options....under the current circumstances you have no point as there is competition in the market, and lots of it.

 

By the way ,back to the original post ,after the link I provided before the stats for Europe are This year HD movie sales ;BR 65% ,HD-DVD 35% . Week of the PS3 launch ;BR 87% ,HDDVD 13% . Recent weeks since PS3 launch ;BR 75% ,HD-DVD 25% . So yes ,apparently BR is killing HD DVD in Europe . By the way Gballzack ,you haven responded me .Sony presents a determinate product with determinate components and a price point .If you dont like it you dont buy it ,or wait until the price is allright for you .Thats all .I assure you there wasnt a Sony representative with a bat and a shirt written BR FTW who threatened us to buy the machine or beat us up to death .They offer a product with some charachteristics and a determinate price .If you dont like the characteristics and dont see as good value for money dont buy it its as easy as that .But pretending Sony is forcing you to buy something is childish ,after that pov Nintendo is forcing us a DVD drive without DVD capabilities without asking and Microsoft is forcing on US DVD and when given the choice they only give us the possibility to buy HD-DVD not BR so they are forcing you ,if you decide to upgrade to HD ,to buy HD-DVD isnt it ?

rocketpig said: Silver_Z said: Why didn't MS put in HD DVD in the 360, so that games offered can be even better(not implying they are bad now, just improvement over existing). Because they didn't want to price themselves out of the market like Sony has done. It's a simple case of risk vs. reward. The reward (expanded disc size that can be utilized by ~20% of the TVs in homes) was not worth the risk (+$150-200 on console price).

Didn't they just price themselves out of the market with the Elite? The price of this PS3 technology will go down and will become more affordable PS3 was not made to be a 3-4 year system and needed to look forward (a luxury Microsoft may not of had because of poor performance by the original X-box) as PS2 owners are really given another year before the next gen jump is made thats over 120 million people to adopt a new system in 1-2 years. The fact Microsoft felt the need to upgrade to an HDMI and plain rip off people to upgrade to a bigger hard drive tells me they built the 360 for right now(and that was probly the only real choice they had due to the loss of money in this division for MS)  

what does the expanded disc size have to do with what TV you have the ability to do more on that disc is irrelavent to what TV you have. Sure maybe you can not output in 1080p but that just one advantage. Also it wouldn't cost $200 to add it isn't the whole HD-DVD attachment only $200 i am sure it could have been cheaper by including it then making it's own drive. That also brings up why would 360 care about the Format enough to embrace HD-DVD as an attachment for movies alone?

Can there be any arguement that compared to the 360 that PS3 is not worth the extra $$$. Just compare the capabilities. Is there really that many people that play Video games on a regular basis that do not want a HDTV? Sure  1080p might be to far up in price for everyone but a 1080i is very reasonably priced. Go Vizio!!! hell a 47"1080p is only $1499 my 37"1080i LCD only $799 and my 32" LCD only $599 it is getting moch more affordable

Gballzack said: your mother said: Silver_Z said: Yes... it has happen before, and it is a good progression. I cant imagine playing high quality console games on a floppy. My point is in regards to thread starter saying "Sony force blu ray on consumers with the PS3". To me, it is a right move and a necessity. Why didn't MS put in HD DVD in the 360, so that games offered can be even better(not implying they are bad now, just improvement over existing). If we are still living in a world where there is only CD, and I have no other choice but to swap disc, then so be it. But since technology has advanced with media capable of huge storage, kudos to the makers for making life better. I do not wanna be stucked in the past. I do agree that the comment doesn't make sense. Nobody is forcing you, o good consumer, to buy anything.  Dear god, and yes, Sony is technically forcing us to buy Blu-Ray because there isn't a PS3 without Blu-Ray functions. If you're going to expand the argument to encompass free will as a consumer, period, then you're just shooting yourself in the foot with the cop-out response of, "well just don't buy one at all". Hell, why buy any console at all, argument finished. Hell why buy anything at all? Be a Hobo! Hell why live? Just kill yourself, you don't need to worry about any problems then! But... that's not the issue here now is it? And I think we can agree an ever expanding compass of avoiding the topic responses are farsical at best. The issue is addressing the situation from the persepctive of a product as the sole point of debate, an abstract concept I know but hopefully one you as an adult can grasp. This is not about the issue of free will as you so eagerly hope to use to dismiss such a claim. Sony held the majority share of the market's games, fans and momentum before the PS3 launched so you'll excuse us if fans don't feel just a little forced when their only alternative to what has been the definition of gaming is another brand altogether that wasn't the domineering force of the last gen. Don't pull this, "nobody's forcing you!" bullshit in defense of a Company's unethical and poorly planned R&D. It's the kind of argument someone uses to sidestep the issue after the fact.

why is it that you feel forced to buy a PS3. Personally I did buy one And I would have been Pissed if they released one without Blu-Ray not because I could have got that one It's because the Games would not use Blu-Ray discs a feature that I do want. Sony is making what they feel consumers want thats what they are in the buisness to do. If they continualy sold things people did not want I would imagine they would have been out of buisness long ago. So i guess if you want a PS3 then yes you are forced to buy a Blu-Ray Player. Just know that one of the things you feel like they forced on you was actually a selling point to many others.

Just to add What the hell does any of this have to do with the fact Blu-Ray is beating HD-DVD. I would just like to take this time to bring to the Mod's attention that any Praise on Blu-ray devoles very quickly into PS3 bashing and yet nothing seems to happen. I thought "Our Kind" (PS3 fans) were the "rampant" ones? Is Sony also forcing people to buy Blu-Ray discs too?

NorthStar said: Didn't they just price themselves out of the market with the Elite? The price of this PS3 technology will go down and will become more affordable PS3 was not made to be a 3-4 year system and needed to look forward (a luxury Microsoft may not of had because of poor performance by the original X-box) as PS2 owners are really given another year before the next gen jump is made thats over 120 million people to adopt a new system in 1-2 years. The fact Microsoft felt the need to upgrade to an HDMI and plain rip off people to upgrade to a bigger hard drive tells me they built the 360 for right now(and that was probly the only real choice they had due to the loss of money in this division for MS)   what does the expanded disc size have to do with what TV you have the ability to do more on that disc is irrelavent to what TV you have. Sure maybe you can not output in 1080p but that just one advantage. Also it wouldn't cost $200 to add it isn't the whole HD-DVD attachment only $200 i am sure it could have been cheaper by including it then making it's own drive. That also brings up why would 360 care about the Format enough to embrace HD-DVD as an attachment for movies alone? Can there be any arguement that compared to the 360 that PS3 is not worth the extra $$$. Just compare the capabilities. Is there really that many people that play Video games on a regular basis that do not want a HDTV? Sure  1080p might be to far up in price for everyone but a 1080i is very reasonably priced. Go Vizio!!! hell a 47"1080p is only $1499 my 37"1080i LCD only $799 and my 32" LCD only $599 it is getting moch more affordable

I'm still waiting for you to start talking about gaming, which is why I buy a console. I have other sources for the rest of my entertainment.

This is about personal choices and what you want a machine to do, not what features you may or may not use.

IN MY OPINION, the PS3 is not worth the extra money. It's that simple. I don't want Blu-Ray, I don't like the game selection right now, and $600 is too much freakin' money for a game console. Since I don't want Blu-Ray for movies, there is no real use for the disc format in my home. I don't mind switching a disc twice in a 70 hour RPG; complaining about that seems silly to me. 

So, in short, yes, arguments can be made whether the PS3 is worth the extra money. It all comes down to what you want your machine to do. The 360 fills my needs better than the PS3, and for $200 less.

I could be wrong but I think that the decision on a format to use with a console today would be similar to the presure Nintendo was under with the N64:

Choosing CD (or online distribution) would be similar to Nintendo choosing cartridges back in the day; the capacity was obviously inadequate for the types of games developers wanted to produce. Choosing DVD would have been similar to Nintendo choosing CD with the N64; the format is inadequate as games were already showing up on multiple discs but it provides a lot of storage at a very affordable price. Choosing Blu-Ray/HD-DVD would have been like Nintendo choosing DVD for the N64; most games would not use the extra capacity in any meaningful way, the cost would have been extreme, and most users would have seen little (or no) benefit from it.

Now, technically speaking you're not forced into buying a Blu-Ray player with your PS3 because you can refuse to buy a PS3 ... In real world terms though you are forced to buy a Blu-Ray player with your PS3. As I see it, the PS3 could have easily used DVD as its game media and would have only cause problems when it comes to HD-FMV (which is kind of pointless on a system as powerful as the PS3) and uncompressed audio (and most people can't tell the difference between uncompressed audio and MP3; they could have offered 2 SKUs so that people who want a Blu-Ray player could spend $600 and those who want a gaming system can spend $300 and everyone would be happy.

NO ONE IS FUCKING SAYING YOU'RE FORCED TO BUY A PS3! WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT IF A PERSON WERE TO, SAY, HYPOTHETICALLY, BUY A PS3, THEN THEY'D BE FORCED TO BUY IT WITH BLU-RAY AS WELL, AN UNEEDED ACCESSORY THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN OPTIONAL. SO LOGICALLY, TO BUY A PS3 IS TO HAVE BLU-RAY "FORCED ON THE CONSUMER"! THUS COMPROMISING THE PS3'S SALES AND SUCCESS THUS PROVING SONY'S POOR DECISION MAKING WHICH WAS MY ORIGINAL POINT. CAN I SPELL IT OUT ANY MORE SIMPLY FOR YOU? Jesus god why are you people so dense, are you all incapable of understanding abstract concepts of perspective in wording, is it so hard to see that I may not be using the word "forced" to the fullest extent of its literal meaning? Why is everyone here so damn two dimentional? Is it unfathomable that perhaps I'm suggesting that Blu-Ray is uneeded on the PS3 and for them to make it manditory for the PS3 it was in essense being "forced" on you? Dear sweet god in heaven do you people have no respect for the sanctity of logic and reason?!

Oh something just occured to me, the movie '300' is going to be on HD-DVD, hehe, good bye BLU-Ray in the U.S.

Gballzack said: NO ONE IS FUCKING SAYING YOU'RE FORCED TO BUY A PS3! WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT IF A PERSON WERE TO, SAY, HYPOTHETICALLY, BUY A PS3, THEN THEY'D BE FORCED TO BUY IT WITH BLU-RAY AS WELL, AN UNEEDED ACCESSORY THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN OPTIONAL. SO LOGICALLY, TO BUY A PS3 IS TO HAVE BLU-RAY "FORCED ON THE CONSUMER"! THUS COMPROMISING THE PS3'S SALES AND SUCCESS THUS PROVING SONY'S POOR DECISION MAKING WHICH WAS MY ORIGINAL POINT. CAN I SPELL IT OUT ANY MORE SIMPLY FOR YOU? Jesus god why are you people so dense, are you all incapable of understanding abstract concepts of perspective in wording, is it so hard to see that I may not be using the word "forced" to the fullest extent of its literal meaning? Why is everyone here so damn two dimentional? Is it unfathomable that perhaps I'm suggesting that Blu-Ray is uneeded on the PS3 and for them to make it manditory for the PS3 it was in essense being "forced" on you? Dear sweet god in heaven do you people have no respect for the sanctity of logic and reason?! Oh something just occured to me, the movie '300' is going to be on HD-DVD, hehe, good bye BLU-Ray in the U.S.

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