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Forums - PC Discussion - AMD New Polaris GPU Revisions w/50% Better Perf/Watt (NX delay reason?)

Game_God said:
bunchanumbers said:

There was already this big argument about it, but Neogaf verified it at 175 or so. Who knows if its true though.

It's 176. The Wii U is more efficient which is why, when games are made it's-way, it can have a massive lead over the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 graphically.

Do you have any source for the 176 part, the only place I read about it was from neogaf forums...

You only need to look at the die shot and know a few things about AMD's GPU architectures and some simple mathematics.

It's 176Gflop for all that it matters. (It doesn't.)



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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Jumpin said:
Actually, it was confirmed that nVidia was the chip manufacturer for NX, not AMD as people previously speculated.

Confirmed by who, Nintendo or Nvidia? Because any other source doesn't count as a confirmation.



Please excuse my bad English.

Currently gaming on a PC with an i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

I so hope that NX chose AMD, but Eurogamer is a very credible source and since the NX is rumored to be a hybrid all logic dictates it should be based on the Nvidia Tegra.

About this improved perf/watt by AMD, this is amazing news and a huge leap forward for AMD's GPUs.



Wow, every single time anyone announces a new chip it's the reason for the NX delay. Really makes you think they should have used parts already on the market, lol. In all honesty though it's getting ridiculous.



Pemalite said:
se7en7thre3 said:

Just speculation but if Nintendo were to use this, they can essentially create gcn 2.0 engineering w/cartridges.  PS4pro will be an ugly hulking beast while NX , if using these new polaris revisions, can come in sleeker than OG PS4 with more power.  

That's blowing it out of proportion I think. :P

fleischr said:
That makes sense. Nintendo likes to keep wattage low on handhelds for battery life reasons.
They're pretty keen on minimizing power draw for their home consoles too.

These chips aren't meant for handheld devices.

JRPGfan said:
WTF? 50% improvement alone from better manufactureing?

Thats nuts. Makes you wonder if the factory that manufactured those chips at start wherent properly calibrated or something.

It's not as uncommon as you think.
Whenever a new node is used, there are tweaks to the process as time goes on.
28nm for example went from 250w on the 7970 to the FuryX at 275w... Transister counts doubled. - And there was a performance difference of 40% to 300% depending on benchmark.

Global Foundries is using Samsung technolgy anyway, Samsung managed to reduce power consumption by 15% and increase switching speed by 15% when it moved from it's LPE (Low-Power-Early) to LPP (Low-Power-Plus) process. Aka. 2nd Generation Samsung 14nm.

This is likely based on the 3rd Generation Samsung 14nm process known as LPC (Low-Power Compact).

numberwang said:
If Zen hits the store, AMD may have something competitive again.

I still have an Athlon 64 X2 running as a legacy device for office use every day... ye olde lives on.

It will be competitive in the mainstream markets most likely, not the high-end, just like Polaris.

shikamaru317 said:

Yeah, I think this is what Nintendo was waiting for when they delayed NX. This improvement affects embedded chips which is exactly what Nintendo would be using for NX. There was a rumor recently of NX using a 3.6 tflop AMD GPU and that matches perfectly with an underclocked RX 470.

Nintendo wouldn't be using an embedded chip. They will likely opt for a Semi-Custom design.

eva01beserk said:

For a hybrid if it reaches 2.5tf on console mode and like 1.25tf on mobile mode, then I would be happy as hell. I mean thats close to x1 performance for a handheald and even better than a wii u. No more than $300 guesses are around $250 then it wwwill still kick ass.

How do you know it's close to the Xbox 1 in terms of performance or better than a Wii U? There is more to performance than flops.

globalisateur said:
I hope Nintendo will chose Nvidia for their tablet. AMD would be a terrible choice. And it's too late for using that tech for NX anyways.

Samsung had laid out their fabrication plans well in advance, Global Foundries licenses Samsung's technology in it's Fabs, Nintendo would have been aware of this for a long time.

I hope Nintendo doesn't go with nVidia and goes with high-end AMD hardware in a fixed-console, if the console is going to be mobile Centric, then I hope it is nVidia or an ARM chip using a fully-fledged Bifrost GPU.

shikamaru317 said:

Yep, Scorpio should use less than 200 watts. PS4 Pro meanwhile uses 310 watts max according to Sony. 

Sony will likely release a revision to take advantage of this new fabrication process in time, all these chips are being made by the same company remember.

malistix1985 said:

Its not unthinkable that sony releases a PS4 Pro slim that has a UHD-player and uses less energy around the Scorpio release

I would be all for a 4k-Bluray support.
The Playstation 4 had the potential to be the ultimate Multimedia hub for the home, but they gave that opportunity away to Microsoft with the lack of CD and 4k Blu-Ray support.
A PS4 Pro Slim could turn that around.

se7en7thre3 said:

Scorpio Im betting will be based off Vega, in the article it says over 7tflop for rx580 (130w) so scorpio will be a cut down version of that or get  bumped up performance.

Polaris can hit those flop numbers as well with aggressive clocks and binning.
Which brings home the point that Polaris and Vega with the same "Flops" will still perform very differently, Microsoft will go with whatever is the most  price/performance efficient at the time.

JEMC said:

Tweaktown isn't as bad as wccftech, but it's not the most credible site either.

I found TweakTown's article: http://www.tweaktown.com/news/54433/amd-improved-radeon-rx-480-50-better-perf-watt/index.html

Funnily enough, that article also lacks proper sources and says the opposite thing of the wccftech one. TweakTown claims that AMD will use these improvements on the desktop cards (the 480 more specifically) while Wccftech claims that AMD will use the improved efficiency on their embedded products first.

I don't really believe any of those rumors.

The Fabrication "rumors" are the real legitimate tidbit.

CGI-Quality said:

Let's hope. No more $1200 Titans/$1700 Intel-E Series CPUs!



I was legitimately looking at 10-Core Xeon's today. Because it would be cheaper than upgrading to LGA 2011-3~ *Grumbles*

JEMC said:

I can see AMD launching xx5 revisions as they showed in that slide explaining the naming of the new cards. What I don't believe is the 50% improvement claimed by those sites.

Up to 15, maybe 20% by next year as the process gets more mature and refined could be, but a 50% improvement in only 4 months since the 480 launched? No way.

Depends on what they are comparing it to.
This is the 3rd Generation 14nm Finfet Process by Samsung.
The 2nd Generation brought a 15% improvement.
Thus if it's improvement is a 50% increase against the 1st generation 14nm process, then it's only a 35% increase from the 2nd generation 14nm process.

shikamaru317 said:

It does sound unlikely, but supposedly Polaris GPU's aren't supposed to be using as much power as they are, some kind of manufacturing defect caused the poor efficiency. Assuming that is the case, then a 50% improvement could in fact be possible. It would have to have been a pretty big manufacturing defect though, I can't imagine anybody making that big of a mistake. But we shall find out soon enough, supposedly these improvements are already showing up in embedded products and will show up in mobile and desktop variants eventually, if the rumors are true. 

Polaris is actually energy efficient. And does well with what it is given.

The problem is people are comparing it against nVidia, nVidia has had a massive edge in efficiency since Maxwell, when nVidia introduced their tiled based approach and took on some things they learned from building Tegra.

Simply put, nVidia is just better. - Will this likely change the landscape in favor of AMD in regards to price/power/performance? Not likely. That is probably a few years away yet.

Game_God said:

Wii U has 352 GFLOPS, so half a TFLOP (500 GFLOPS) makes it roughly 45% more powerfull than Wii U... not very impressive unless it's a handheld, which is nice enought power in that case...

Comparing chips on flops alone is highly inaccurate.

bunchanumbers said:

There was already this big argument about it, but Neogaf verified it at 175 or so. Who knows if its true though.

It's 176. The Wii U is more efficient which is why, when games are made it's-way, it can have a massive lead over the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 graphically.

JEMC said:

Summary: using embbeded products to extrapolate the performance or power consumption of the desktop versions doesn't work.

We cannot forget either that Embedded products tend to not be aggressively binned. They need to be built for reliability first, so they usually run with more volts than they need.

Damn it Perm, you can't make posts like these, they are so hard to reply to. It's very hard to delete all the posts that are quoted. It's beautiful posting architecture, but not very practical.

Why don't you think Zen can be competitive in the high-end market when an old ass CPU like the AMD FX-8350 still is only like 25% slower than a Core i7 6700 in modern games? Even in CPU-intensive games like Fallout 4 or Battlefield WW1.

If the Zen can be like 10% slower in gaming scenarios compared with the next version of an Intel Core i5-6600 or Core i7-6700, but cost $200 it should be competitive.

Comparing FLOPS with FLOPS works quite fine in the context of new consoles. Even if the margin of error is like 30%, they give a good ballpark estimate. But of course it's good that somebody reminds people that it's not always a linear relationship.



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Slimebeast said:
I so hope that NX chose AMD, but Eurogamer is a very credible source and since the NX is rumored to be a hybrid all logic dictates it should be based on the Nvidia Tegra.

About this improved perf/watt by AMD, this is amazing news and a huge leap forward for AMD's GPUs.

Eurogamer is the source of both the Tegra rumor and the tablet. And Eurogamer said that 3DS would use Nvidia.  So both can reasonably be dismissed together. 

When you then switch the concept in reverse, that it is a home console with a portable component, AMD makes much more sense. I don't think for a second they are trying to stuff competitive chips in a tablet.



I have a REALLY funny feeling in the pit of my stomach about this console. Something that I haven't read anyone talk about yet.

 

I really want to post my thought in a new post but I can't cause I need 50 Posts to make a new topic..... (Not complaining but who came up with such a large amout of posts).



Slimebeast said:

Damn it Perm, you can't make posts like these, they are so hard to reply to. It's very hard to delete all the posts that are quoted. It's beautiful posting architecture, but not very practical.

Why don't you think Zen can be competitive in the high-end market when an old ass CPU like the AMD FX-8350 still is only like 25% slower than a Core i7 6700 in modern games? Even in CPU-intensive games like Fallout 4 or Battlefield WW1.

If the Zen can be like 10% slower in gaming scenarios compared with the next version of an Intel Core i5-6600 or Core i7-6700, but cost $200 it should be competitive.

Comparing FLOPS with FLOPS works quite fine in the context of new consoles. Even if the margin of error is like 30%, they give a good ballpark estimate. But of course it's good that somebody reminds people that it's not always a linear relationship.

Because AMD doesn't have the resources to tackle the high-end market, sadly.
Intel has the fabrication edge, the man-power edge, the financial edge and the R&D edge.

As for the FX-8350. It might be competitive in Fallout 4 or Battlefield 1. But those games are also able to run on a 10 year old Core 2 Quad, so it's not saying allot, they aren't known to be CPU killers.
Throw a lightly-threaded, CPU demanding game and watch the FX chip cumple.

Zen's cache hierachy is also telling us that it might not scale as well as Intel with higher core counts, all predictions are that it will allow for AMD to makeup the massive performance deficit with Intel's current chips, not surpass them, even it's chipsets are pointing towards the mainstream and not the high-end market segments with no support for Triple/Quad-channel memory and lacking in PCI-E lanes. (20 lanes for AMD, 40 for Intel.)
Intel is also gearing up with Skylake-X and Kaby Lake-X for launch. (With Kaby Lake having some rediculous improvements in some cases.)

After that we get Coffee Lake.

Besides, AMD's track record hasn't been great lately.
They flopped with the Phenom and it's TLB bug.
The Phenom 2 was a great price/performance chip, but still lost to Core 2 and got beaten by Nahelem.
The FX Lineup, despite AMD's promises and the Hype-train, never amounted to anything steller.
Polaris after years of AMD GPU' stagnation and re-badges was a massive let-down against a very competitive and well-executing nVidia.

Basically we can sum it up as this.
If you are waiting to see what Zen brings to the table before you upgrade/build your PC, then don't. Go Intel now as AMD is not likely to retake the performance crown anyway, they might help lower prices though.
I'll likely still pick one up, I have had every AMD CPU generation since the old K6-2.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Slimebeast said:

Damn it Perm, you can't make posts like these, they are so hard to reply to. It's very hard to delete all the posts that are quoted. It's beautiful posting architecture, but not very practical.

Why don't you think Zen can be competitive in the high-end market when an old ass CPU like the AMD FX-8350 still is only like 25% slower than a Core i7 6700 in modern games? Even in CPU-intensive games like Fallout 4 or Battlefield WW1.

If the Zen can be like 10% slower in gaming scenarios compared with the next version of an Intel Core i5-6600 or Core i7-6700, but cost $200 it should be competitive.

Comparing FLOPS with FLOPS works quite fine in the context of new consoles. Even if the margin of error is like 30%, they give a good ballpark estimate. But of course it's good that somebody reminds people that it's not always a linear relationship.

Because AMD doesn't have the resources to tackle the high-end market, sadly.
Intel has the fabrication edge, the man-power edge, the financial edge and the R&D edge.

As for the FX-8350. It might be competitive in Fallout 4 or Battlefield 1. But those games are also able to run on a 10 year old Core 2 Quad, so it's not saying allot, they aren't known to be CPU killers.
Throw a lightly-threaded, CPU demanding game and watch the FX chip cumple.

Zen's cache hierachy is also telling us that it might not scale as well as Intel with higher core counts, all predictions are that it will allow for AMD to makeup the massive performance deficit with Intel's current chips, not surpass them, even it's chipsets are pointing towards the mainstream and not the high-end market segments with no support for Triple/Quad-channel memory and lacking in PCI-E lanes. (20 lanes for AMD, 40 for Intel.)
Intel is also gearing up with Skylake-X and Kaby Lake-X for launch. (With Kaby Lake having some rediculous improvements in some cases.)

After that we get Coffee Lake.

Besides, AMD's track record hasn't been great lately.
They flopped with the Phenom and it's TLB bug.
The Phenom 2 was a great price/performance chip, but still lost to Core 2 and got beaten by Nahelem.
The FX Lineup, despite AMD's promises and the Hype-train, never amounted to anything steller.
Polaris after years of AMD GPU' stagnation and re-badges was a massive let-down against a very competitive and well-executing nVidia.

Basically we can sum it up as this.
If you are waiting to see what Zen brings to the table before you upgrade/build your PC, then don't. Go Intel now as AMD is not likely to retake the performance crown anyway, they might help lower prices though.
I'll likely still pick one up, I have had every AMD CPU generation since the old K6-2.

Yes, I am indeed waiting to see what Zen brings to the table for my future comp. I'm eagerly waiting for Zen and Vega. Nvidia and Intel aren't an option because I am 100% AMD and I trust them. I don't have to get the "performance crown" CPU for gaming. I am certain a $250 Zen will be competitive enuff in modern games and future games versus the popular $300 Intel CPUs next year, and within rufly ~10% in modern games which are so GPU-bound anyway in practical circumstances, especially in 4K which I'm targeting for next year (assuming 4K HDR moniters are released with at least 75Hz).



TheLastStarFighter said:
Slimebeast said:
I so hope that NX chose AMD, but Eurogamer is a very credible source and since the NX is rumored to be a hybrid all logic dictates it should be based on the Nvidia Tegra.

About this improved perf/watt by AMD, this is amazing news and a huge leap forward for AMD's GPUs.

Eurogamer is the source of both the Tegra rumor and the tablet. And Eurogamer said that 3DS would use Nvidia.  So both can reasonably be dismissed together. 

When you then switch the concept in reverse, that it is a home console with a portable component, AMD makes much more sense. I don't think for a second they are trying to stuff competitive chips in a tablet.

But hey, the 3DS was release like 5 years ago. Hardly does it damage Eurogamer's credibility if they were wrong on that perdiction back then.

Also, the big factor against the AMD theory is that to my knowledge AMD doesn't have any GPU that can fit into a portable sized hybrid console, right?

Arufly ~0.5TFLOP GPU performancer by the NX would be certainly enuff to make beautiful looking Nintendo games. It wouldn't be enuff to make multiplatforms look good, but Nintendo isn't reliable on multiplatforms for its success anyway.

If the NX would be on par with Xbox One at 1.3 TFLOPS it would be a huge bonus, even if it was available just in "home console mode", but I don't expect it. It would mean incredible graphics and a major success. But the visual looks of the new open world Zelda suggests the NX will be rufly 0.5 TFLOPs (I know it runs on a Wii U, but judging from the engine design and stuff you can extrapolate and determine how the NX version will look. I think you can clearly see that the game is not being designed with Xbox One level of performance in mind).

The new Zelda to me doesn't look 100% pleasing because it's a bit blurry, but for other Nintendo games like Donkey Kong, Mario and Picmin the NX graphics will be incredible.