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Forums - Politics Discussion - Sam Harris explains why Trump is a dangerous candidate.

method114 said:
Azuren said:
Not even gonna bother if he tries to make the point that one is worse than the other because I refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils. Gary Johnson has my vote.

It's sad that this is the choice people are focing themselves to choose between. Just vote Gary Johnson and really prove a point. All anyone says is "he has no chance of winning". Of course not because everyone says that. Stop treating the voting system as a win or lose situation vote for who you truly believe is the best of all the avaliable canidates and let the chips fall where they may.

The only thing is if you know He is the worse of the two and you vote for someone other than those two, Hillary loses a vote. There are not too many people who think that Trump is the lesser of the two evils and are going to vote for him in protest of Clinton being corrupt.

Think of it like this if everyone who hates Trump but also has a dislike of some aspects of Clinton goes off and votes for other parties which are never going to get elected in reality then Trump will win this election hands down, don't think of voting for Her as being a vote to put her into the office... think of it as a vote to prevent the worse of two evils going into power and getting that massive ego boost to think that all of the citizens of the US think the way he does, that a whole nation are that ... racist I want to say but so much more.



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plip.plop said:
Normchacho said:

 

This video is both a little long, and a little old, but it does a great job of explaining what makes Donald Drumpf such a different beast to others that have run for President before. It also goes a long way to quash the idea that Clinton and Drumpf are equally bad.

It's way too long for me to put the whole transcript here, but I did want to write out the part where he talks about the ethical issues surrounding Drumpfs proposal to deport illegal immigrants.

The whole deportation topic starts at 21:22 

"The vast majority of these people are simply doing jobs that most Americans don't want to do. So now look around you, look at the nanny's and housekeepers you meet in the world. If you have young kids you might meet a lot of these people. Now imagine all of them who are undocumented rounded up and deported, inevitably at gunpoint. Because if you did most of these people don't want to go as most of them won't. You're talking about the threat of deadly force knocking on the door, that's what these operations would look like. We're talking about the people that bus tables at your favorite restaraunt, the guys you see working at a carwash, people who pick fruit. People by the millions who do productive work that Americans simply by and large do not want to do, and many of these people have kids who are American citizens.

So now we're talking about breaking up families. What does that look like? What does it look like to send the mother of a four year old American citizen back to Mexico? How many tens of thousands of people would fall into that precise situation under this policy and how many hundreds of thousands of stormtroopers would be required to enact it? We're talking about a terrifying authoritarian intrusion into our lives to bring this off. For the point of what? to get rid of rapists? No, to get rid of nannies."

This argument irritates me more than anything. Yes, most Americans don't want to do that job at those wages. 

You are allowing business to get away with not hiring or paying regular wages to Americans and instead exploit these people. It's fucking slave labor and to allow them to stay here under such horrible living conditions.

Who's going to do the job if their gone is everyone's concern, yet no one cares about how most of them live now.   Why is it when this argument is made it's always who's going to pick the fruit, clean your toilets, etc... I'm sure this was the same argument slave owners made as justification to keep their slaves. People just want to keep their slaves, but now just want to act like they care about them. 

Also the rounding up of illegals at gunpoint already happened in the 90's It was done by Hillary's husband Bill with the little Cuban boy Elian. Did this jackhole already forget that?

So the solution is kicking out the enslaved and oppressed, rather than giving them legal status and proper protections under labour laws? And doing exactly nothing to punish the companies who are profiting off paying low wages.

And the fact of the matter is, even at minimum wage Americans don't want to do that work. It's a myth that 10 million Americans would suddenly be interested in being housekeepers and nannies if it paid $7.25 an hour instead of $5.00 an hour. Those are still minimum wage jobs, that in reality US citizens are financially better off sitting on welfare than going to the expense of having a job like that.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

binary solo said:
plip.plop said:

This argument irritates me more than anything. Yes, most Americans don't want to do that job at those wages. 

You are allowing business to get away with not hiring or paying regular wages to Americans and instead exploit these people. It's fucking slave labor and to allow them to stay here under such horrible living conditions.

Who's going to do the job if their gone is everyone's concern, yet no one cares about how most of them live now.   Why is it when this argument is made it's always who's going to pick the fruit, clean your toilets, etc... I'm sure this was the same argument slave owners made as justification to keep their slaves. People just want to keep their slaves, but now just want to act like they care about them. 

Also the rounding up of illegals at gunpoint already happened in the 90's It was done by Hillary's husband Bill with the little Cuban boy Elian. Did this jackhole already forget that?

So the solution is kicking out the enslaved and oppressed, rather than giving them legal status and proper protections under labour laws? And doing exactly nothing to punish the companies who are profiting off paying low wages.

And the fact of the matter is, even at minimum wage Americans don't want to do that work. It's a myth that 10 million Americans would suddenly be interested in being housekeepers and nannies if it paid $7.25 an hour instead of $5.00 an hour. Those are still minimum wage jobs, that in reality US citizens are financially better off sitting on welfare than going to the expense of having a job like that.

That and have fun at the grocery store next time when the cost of all food is up by like 25%. 



Slimebeast said:
Soundwave said:

Firstly, I do think people have to learn to live together. That is a liberal idea. Locking yourself in your country and saying 6/7 of the world's population has to live in poverty is morally reprehensible. 

We have a responsibility to allow a reasonable flow of immigration. Beyond that, it's needed in the first place, the only reason America is able to lead is because they import half their PhDs from India and China, otherwise it's a pretty stupid country (of developed countries, America almost always puts up mediocre eductional rankings compared to other developed countries). 

By and large MOST people are able to co-exist. Yes they are different, but even most Muslims in the West are not raving fanatics, they're just regular people. Have a conversation with one. They're not the boogeyman they're painted out to be. 

Yes, there are always going to be issues, but before the West pats itself on the back too hard for "progressive" liberal ideals like gay rights and minority rights, 20-30 years ago many in the West felt the same as the average Muslim does today. Progress takes time, it isn't done overnight. 

We cannot hide behind borders forever, the world is changed, we have access to technology and eductation and information and are tied together with a global system of capital no matter what. If this existed for humans 500 years ago, the way countries are made up would be vastly different. 

And honestly I simply don't fear some kind of "Islamist" state in the West, no one (including most Muslims here) want to live like an 18th century goat herder. 

Hyper-religiousism (if you want to call it that) will always fail in a modern society. 

Yes sure for that particular religion perhaps more thoughtful integration policies are required, but thoughtful is the operative word there. 

This post is a huge insult to the Western man, and you conveniently ignored my post about concrete issues.

"We cannot hide behind borders forever" takes the price. When young whites/etnical kids in both the USA and Sweden respectably have become minorities beause of decades of immigration you have the nerve to accuse us of "locking ourself in" our country lol.

You claim we have a "responsibility" to allow a reasonable flow. Responsibility for what exactly? To help those who flee from war and persecution? To also let in all the poor?

The goal is to take in as many foreigners as possible because the truth is that the very purpose in itself is to humiliate the white man and make him a minority in his own home.

And how much is a "reasonable flow"? Apparently our current flow is not reasonable enough for you. The left will never be satisfied. Now we're at the point where's it's simply "We're already multicultural and it's too late to change that, just learn to deal with it lol"

That's a nasty and deliberate tactic they've used from the very beginning.

To call America stupid country is another insult and factually ridiculous.

You always say these bad things only about Western nations, never anything negative about foreigners. It stinks. It's with this type of lenient attitude we get these horrendous consequences where the authorities are lecturing to the crime-victim about the perpetrators trauma with racism and being vulnerable

Well I'm sorry you think it's insulting. I will address your points none the less, lol. 

1.) I'm saying the world is more global. Not because of a conspiracy, just common sense, we live in interconnected world due to monstrous advances in technology in the last 100 years or so, which have radically altered humanity forever. And there will be more changes in the nex 100 years which will change society as well. If we had that level of technology in the 16th/17th century, the world you live in today would also be radically different. Human migration patterns would be radically different. This is not really an opinion, just a point of fact. Yes things have been a certain way and groups of people were left alienated apart from each other for hundreds of years ... but people also used to shit in bushes and travel on horseback, etc. etc. etc. A seperated world isn't realistic anymore. 

2.) America has always been a nation of immigrants large parts of it were carved out over Mexico and built on the backs of African slave labor. So an ethnically diverse population has always been instrinic to America. If you are speaking about Europe, 90% of Europe is still white European. Is it really that difficult to live next to 1 out of 10 people who have a skin shade darker than yours? If that's the case, then we are a pretty sad sack species to begin with. What are we going to do in 100-200 years? We are going to have to leave this rock sooner or later and it's going to have to be through cooperation. 

3.) You claim we have a "responsibility" to allow a reasonable flow. Responsibility for what exactly? To help those who flee from war and persecution? To also let in all the poor? Responsibility to humanity I would say. If you are consuming 80% of the world's resources, telling 6/7 of the world to go munch on your breadcrumbs is not a humane way to run a civilized planet in which there is enough food to go around for example. I personally think it's sad that your world view is that helping people who just want a shot at a decent life means you are being "humilated". I am not saying unchecked immigration, but certainly I think the West has some onus to accept a fair share of people who want a better life because we live in a society of tremendous privelege and abundance. We throw away more food at a dinner table than a lot of families get to eat in 2-3 days in some parts of the world. Now yes, maybe we do need to instigate strong integration mechanisms, on that I would agree if someone raised that point.

I would say the point the Left misses out on is they underestimate how large of a transition going from another country to the West can be, there needs to be mechanisms in place to ease into that.  

4.) To call America stupid country is another insult and factually ridiculous.

Is it really? Consider also the massive resources the US has at that, there is no excuse for test scores so far below so many other developed nations. 

Here's another one, 64% of Americans can't even name the three branches of their own government:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/09/18/only-36-percent-of-americans-can-name-the-three-branches-of-government/

The main reason America still drives a lot of technical innovation in the world is because they allow in *a lot* of highly skilled PhDs, doctors, tech workers, etc. from China/India/etc. That is basically what drives Silicon Valley. 

5.) I will say the current trend of radical Islamic extremism is a negative, but many immigrants are not Muslim, and even many of the Muslims are not extremists. There needs to be distinctions made. And what happens when/if "radical Islam" is defeated? Then what will the excuse be? Because I think the right loves radical Islam, they needed something like that so badly, if you removed that from the debate, it's really not much of a debate. 



Soundwave said:
binary solo said:

So the solution is kicking out the enslaved and oppressed, rather than giving them legal status and proper protections under labour laws? And doing exactly nothing to punish the companies who are profiting off paying low wages.

And the fact of the matter is, even at minimum wage Americans don't want to do that work. It's a myth that 10 million Americans would suddenly be interested in being housekeepers and nannies if it paid $7.25 an hour instead of $5.00 an hour. Those are still minimum wage jobs, that in reality US citizens are financially better off sitting on welfare than going to the expense of having a job like that.

That and have fun at the grocery store next time when the cost of all food is up by like 25%. 

I personally have no problem paying extra for goods and services if that extra is going towards the lowest people on the food chain making a livable income. It's when those price increases simply funnel into the pockets of the people at the top that I get a bit miffed about prices going up.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

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super_etecoon said:
It has been most interesting to me to see on my facebook feed that the people who support Trump are the same ones that consistently bullied me and several of my friends throughout my K-8 grade experience during the 80's. These are people that truly made going to school a horrible, horrifying experience and having reconnected with them so many years later I had hope that with the silly posturing of grade school and middle school far behind us we would have positive, intelligent relationships. Instead I see them regularly post inciteful, hateful, and bigoted positions on just about ever topic that hits our culture. Is this my microcosmic perception, or have other people encountered this same phenomena?

No, because they have equally horrible people on both sides of the fence. If you fail to see it, it may be due to your own bias.



Soundwave said:

Well I'm sorry you think it's insulting. I will address your points none the less, lol. 

1.) I'm saying the world is more global. Not because of a conspiracy, just common sense, we live in interconnected world due to monstrous advances in technology in the last 100 years or so, which have radically altered humanity forever. And there will be more changes in the nex 100 years which will change society as well. If we had that level of technology in the 16th/17th century, the world you live in today would also be radically different. Human migration patterns would be radically different. This is not really an opinion, just a point of fact. Yes things have been a certain way and groups of people were left alienated apart from each other for hundreds of years ... but people also used to shit in bushes and travel on horseback, etc. etc. etc. A seperated world isn't realistic anymore. 

2.) America has always been a nation of immigrants large parts of it were carved out over Mexico and built on the backs of African slave labor. So an ethnically diverse population has always been instrinic to America. If you are speaking about Europe, 90% of Europe is still white European. Is it really that difficult to live next to 1 out of 10 people who have a skin shade darker than yours? If that's the case, then we are a pretty sad sack species to begin with. What are we going to do in 100-200 years? We are going to have to leave this rock sooner or later and it's going to have to be through cooperation. 

3.) You claim we have a "responsibility" to allow a reasonable flow. Responsibility for what exactly? To help those who flee from war and persecution? To also let in all the poor? Responsibility to humanity I would say. If you are consuming 80% of the world's resources, telling 6/7 of the world to go munch on your breadcrumbs is not a humane way to run a civilized planet in which there is enough food to go around for example. I personally think it's sad that your world view is that helping people who just want a shot at a decent life means you are being "humilated". I am not saying unchecked immigration, but certainly I think the West has some onus to accept a fair share of people who want a better life because we live in a society of tremendous privelege and abundance. We throw away more food at a dinner table than a lot of families get to eat in 2-3 days in some parts of the world. Now yes, maybe we do need to instigate strong integration mechanisms, on that I would agree if someone raised that point.

I would say the point the Left misses out on is they underestimate how large of a transition going from another country to the West can be, there needs to be mechanisms in place to ease into that.  

4.) To call America stupid country is another insult and factually ridiculous.

Is it really? Consider also the massive resources the US has at that, there is no excuse for test scores so far below so many other developed nations. 

Here's another one, 64% of Americans can't even name the three branches of their own government:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/09/18/only-36-percent-of-americans-can-name-the-three-branches-of-government/

The main reason America still drives a lot of technical innovation in the world is because they allow in *a lot* of highly skilled PhDs, doctors, tech workers, etc. from China/India/etc. That is basically what drives Silicon Valley. 

5.) I will say the current trend of radical Islamic extremism is a negative, but many immigrants are not Muslim, and even many of the Muslims are not extremists. There needs to be distinctions made. And what happens when/if "radical Islam" is defeated? Then what will the excuse be? Because I think the right loves radical Islam, they needed something like that so badly, if you removed that from the debate, it's really not much of a debate. 

Yeah, America has always been a nation of immigrants... from Europe. They were people who for the most part shared the same culture. The same can't be said for 80+% of the immigrants who've arrived since 1965. Not to mention how the previous wave of immigrants had to be completely independent or they would be forced to leave; nowadays, we have a huge welfare state that'll go bankrupt supporting these people.

Also, this country wasn’t built on the back of African slaves. Only the South had significant slave populations, and that’s why it was the poorest part of the country for two centuries; they had no incentive to create a more efficient economy. America became rich because of industry and innovation, which happened largely in New England and the Midwest.

As for Europe, living among other people is easy until they start rejecting European culture, committing crimes en masse, and being financially supported by the state. They've let in way too many people over too short a time, just as we have in the US. If they're ever going to be successfully integrated, we need to close the floodgates and take a break from such high levels of immigration.

Finally, did you seriously just point to the US having low PISA scores when I specifically debunked that in my last post? White Americans do as well as white Europeans. What you're seeing is just how large the non-white population is in the US. http://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html



Soundwave said:

5.) I will say the current trend of radical Islamic extremism is a negative, but many immigrants are not Muslim, and even many of the Muslims are not extremists. There needs to be distinctions made. And what happens when/if "radical Islam" is defeated? Then what will the excuse be? Because I think the right loves radical Islam, they needed something like that so badly, if you removed that from the debate, it's really not much of a debate. 

Define "many" because that is an extremely general term. I think you mean to say there are more Muslims that are not extremists than those who are. However, that does not necessarily mean that there aren't many Muslim extremists. This is also very black-and-white thinking as religious fundamentalism is on a spectrum. In fact, the person in the thread title, Sam Harris, was the one who brought up the cocentric circles concept.

Your comment on the right loving radical Islam is also perplexing because you're generalizing all critics of radical Islam. What if I told you that classical liberals and libertarians are also highly critical of radical Islam?



Aura7541 said:
Soundwave said:

5.) I will say the current trend of radical Islamic extremism is a negative, but many immigrants are not Muslim, and even many of the Muslims are not extremists. There needs to be distinctions made. And what happens when/if "radical Islam" is defeated? Then what will the excuse be? Because I think the right loves radical Islam, they needed something like that so badly, if you removed that from the debate, it's really not much of a debate. 

Define "many" because that is an extremely general term. I think you mean to say there are more Muslims that are not extremists than those who are. However, that does not necessarily mean that there aren't many Muslim extremists. This is also very black-and-white thinking as religious fundamentalism is on a spectrum. In fact, the person in the thread title, Sam Harris, was the one who brought up the cocentric circles concept.

Your comment on the right loving radical Islam is also perplexing because you're generalizing all critics of radical Islam. What if I told you that classical liberals and libertarians are also highly critical of radical Islam?

Yes I meant that most Muslims are not extremists. Most of them (in the West) hold views in actuality that are conservative, but that doesn't make them extremists, just maybe 20-30 years behind the curve of where Western society is. 

Radical Islam is a godsend to right wing fascists and racists (even though I would say religious fundamentalism is because of the same family as right wing racism) because it gives them a rally cry to try and legitimize themselves with, as in: "our beliefs might be untenable and racist to you, but look at how crazy these guys are! We're not so bad now are we?" type of thing. 



method114 said:
super_etecoon said:
It has been most interesting to me to see on my facebook feed that the people who support Trump are the same ones that consistently bullied me and several of my friends throughout my K-8 grade experience during the 80's. These are people that truly made going to school a horrible, horrifying experience and having reconnected with them so many years later I had hope that with the silly posturing of grade school and middle school far behind us we would have positive, intelligent relationships. Instead I see them regularly post inciteful, hateful, and bigoted positions on just about ever topic that hits our culture. Is this my microcosmic perception, or have other people encountered this same phenomena?

What's interesting to me is that you have these people as friends on FB.

Bad things in the past aside, I really hope you wouldn't end a friendship with someone over differing political views. That'd be one of the silliest things I've ever heard.



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