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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Microsoft Won’t Require Native 4K on Scorpio Games

Nobody cares anyway. The Xbox almost doesn't have third party exclusives anymore, so 99% of the games won't use the Scorpio as a base console. It will just be the "normal mode" for Xbox One and PS4, and the "Plus mode" for PS4 Pro and Scorpio. At most you will have a bit of difference in the resolution of framerate like we have now, but nothing about "the superiority of the 6tflops".



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GribbleGrunger said:

 But it doesn't matter, remember? For the last 3 years 900p hasn't been a problem and I can see no reason why this pushed narrative is going to change just because it now suits. Plus Sony CAN advertise 'native 4K' on certain games. With a years head start and 4K/HDR, the Scorpio will struggle to convince anyone outside of the internet that it's worth buying over the PS4pro.

 

I don't doubt the PSPro may have some native 4K games.  The Xbox 360 had a large number of native 1080p indie games, but the compromises required to get that resolution on that hardware simply weren't anything close to worth it.



Machiavellian said:

I believe MS will get a portion of their base back because those people still enjoy the games that MS make.  They may also get the people who majority play 3rd party games if they can prove an advantage in performance and image quality over the PS4 pro.  Last but not least, probably CES or E3 we probably will see MS VR effort.  If MS can prove the scorpio does better within that area as well this could also be an advantage.  

The thing is, there is a lot of time for MS and Sony to screw up or execute successfully. Its in MS best interest to keep drumming up every advantage no matter how slight it is to show a difference between their offerings and Sony.  Successful marketing will be how MS can relay that info to your average consumer.

Reading that got me excited for a Gears of War VR game where you have to watch the sky for airborne attacks, but also look down watching for emergence holes.  I think I just wet myself with glee.  :D

I'm an Xbox owner, but I'm giving serious debate about what VR solution I want between the HTC Vive and PSVR.  I might get a PS4Pro for VR, or may get a Vive and upgrade my PC.  The Vive may later work on the Scorpio, but that's just a wild-assed guess at this point.  Decisions, decisions.  I wish they'd released more info about Scorpio and VR.  I might be willing to wait, if I knew what I was waiting for!



Well it's clear that 6TFs isn't enough for great graphics, 60fps and 4K. So that still leaves Scorpio in a land of compromise. To get native 4K PS4P has to make much harder compromises with graphics it's true, but PS4P can still do native 4K if the developer wants to hit that mark. The thing is I don't think many or any developers will be interested in hitting 4K at the expense of other, more important visual elements.

IMO, the most important thing for games in this 2nd half of the 8th gen is hitting 1080p with a smooth 60fps for almost all games. That was meant to be the holy grail at the start of the generation and it was quickly proven that PS4 and XB one could not do that, and indeed for almost no games has that been achieve.

So the question for me is if 4.2TFs is enough to consistently achieve 1080p@60 (which is what I hope most developers aim for, is 6TF overkill since striving for native 4K capability in consoles is a bridge too far right now, and hitting 4K native resolution should be a thing to aim for in the next hardware upgrade/9th gen?



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HokageTenshi said:

since when did Sony forcing 3rd-party to develop their games 4k a must??

i thought just at least 1080p a must?

The only thing Sony demands is that all games are playable on PS4 and PS4P. Which because of the lack of VR support for Xb one, MS can't do that. Sony has possibly benchmarked 1080p as a minimum for PS4P, but I don't recall. And I would damn well hope that it should not be dificult to achieve 1080p. 1080p has been reasonably achievable on the majority of PS4 games, even if it meant 30fps in pretty much all cases.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

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Whatever.

If devs can get that 1080p/60fps standard on Scorpio then it'll be a way better buy than a Pro. Which just seems unnecessary. But I don't know how many devs actually care about getting 60 frames on console.



Sigs are dumb. And so are you!

JRPGfan said:
teigaga said:
I don't even expect PS5 to have 4k as a standard.

I expect the PS5 to be atleast twice of what the PS4 pro is.

That would suck, that isn't much more powerful than the X1 Scorpio. If the PS5 comes in 2019 or 2020, they should be able to better than that.

The Scorpio is 4 years later and has over 4x the GPU power. Sony should go big to push 4K and graphics.



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shikamaru317 said:

Based on what we know of Scorpio's specs, we can compare it to similar PC hardware and find that in most cases Scorpio will probably only be capable of the equivalent of PC medium settings at 4K, whereas if developers go with 1440p and then checkerboard upscale to 4K they may be able to achieve the equivalent of PC very high-ultra settings. 

1) Scorpio will not use checkerboard. Pretty sure that is a Sony patent which means it excludes every other platform.

2) Temporal Reconstruction is likely the alternative.

3) We have no idea how grunty Scorpio is, there is so much more to a chips capabilities than the raw Flops and Bandwidth numbers.


shikamaru317 said:

In the end both 1080p tv owners and 4K tv owners see a benefit from higher graphics quality, while only 4K tv owners see a significant improvement from higher resolution (1080p tv owners get supersampling to help smooth out edges but that's it). The results we've seen from checkerboard upscaling are promising imo, it's not as clean as a native 4K image, but it uses alot less of your rendering budget, freeing up resources to use on other things such as higher resolution textures, better lighting, longer draw distances, and higher polygon count character models.


Super Samping is not something you should understate, how do you think we get bullshot images? There is a benefit to 1080P users.

teigaga said:
If Microsoft wants to exist "without" generations they certainly can't have 6+Tflops all going towards resolution

Can you explain to me how flops is somehow tied to a specific resolution?

JRPGfan said:

I expect the PS5 to be atleast twice of what the PS4 pro is.

By 2020, hopefully thats possible at 399$.

Which will be 4k standart imo, also by then many many more people will have 4k tv's.

If by 2020, the PS5 is only double the capability of the PS4 Pro (I.E. Roughly 50% better than the Scorpio?) then there is zero point in kickstarting a new generation.

GribbleGrunger said:
Except that the PS4pro will have 4K native games and the difference between GPU checkerboard upscaling and native 4K won't be of any significance and even less noticeable than 720p compared to 1080p. The best MS can do is put 'we have more 4K games' in their adverts.


There is a significant difference between Checkerboard upscaling and Native 4k on a large (Think 60-70") 4k TV.

Checkerboard upscaling is a stop-gap solution just like Temporal Reconstruction in order to achieve a better result than the lower resolution, it's not a replacement for a native higher resolution.

GribbleGrunger said:

The whole point of MS pushing the specs and resolution is in the hope of stealing PS4 owners back. That's what I'm addressing here.

Let's hope Microsoft does gain marketshare, competition is a good thing.
I would like to see Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony all with equivalent marketshare to drive innovation and keep prices low.

CGI-Quality said:
Of course it won't. Go look at how many PC games are native 4K (I'm talking TRULY 4K, not upscaled assets). Also, the prediction of a 10TF console for next gen (not sure who said that above) is a good one. Considering what I know about next gen stuff, if you think you'll be getting a whole bunch of native 4K games before the 10th generation (PS6), prepare for MAJOR disappointment.

It's interesting, because you know yourself that when you are rendering a game, not everything is rendered at the displayed resolution anyway, you can have light shafts which are a 720P in a 1080P game or 4k textures in a 720P game.

But I agree. 4k isn't happening across the board natively with full 60fps and a high level of visual fidelity.

What the consoles will do is force various "tricks" to narrow the gap. (Temporal Reconstruction, Checkerboard, Upscaling etc'.)
But in the end, these are techniques required out of necessity due to the hardware not existing yet for full proper 4k.

And untill the PC has that technology in the mid-range/mainstream, then the consoles will not get it either.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Nothing is wrong with developer freedom. Expect next gen games on Scorpio.



binary solo said:
Well it's clear that 6TFs isn't enough for great graphics, 60fps and 4K. So that still leaves Scorpio in a land of compromise. To get native 4K PS4P has to make much harder compromises with graphics it's true, but PS4P can still do native 4K if the developer wants to hit that mark. The thing is I don't think many or any developers will be interested in hitting 4K at the expense of other, more important visual elements.

IMO, the most important thing for games in this 2nd half of the 8th gen is hitting 1080p with a smooth 60fps for almost all games. That was meant to be the holy grail at the start of the generation and it was quickly proven that PS4 and XB one could not do that, and indeed for almost no games has that been achieve.

So the question for me is if 4.2TFs is enough to consistently achieve 1080p@60 (which is what I hope most developers aim for, is 6TF overkill since striving for native 4K capability in consoles is a bridge too far right now, and hitting 4K native resolution should be a thing to aim for in the next hardware upgrade/9th gen?

I believe 6tf will be what you need for a really good immersion VR experience with assets that do not look like they were made on the 360.  I believe Sony 4.2 will be middle of the road and will be good enough but the Scorpio will have the edge no matter what you use the system for