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Forums - Sony Discussion - Best TV for PS4 Pro?

Azuren on 18 September 2016
Intrinsic said:
Azuren said:

TV salesman here. For quality, Sony still has Samsung beat. Many KU and KS models come back for green lines and OS corruption, where Sony's only ever come back for preferential reasons ("I need something bigger/smaller", "I decided to go with a cheaper brand", "my husband/wife said they ONLY want ____ brand")

 

And OLED is more accurately a dead end, just like Plasma was.

Well.... I'm not gonna agree with jist cause you are a salesman. Yes I know Sony probably has everyone beat on quality, but their TVsalso suffer a lot from banding and uneven lighting. And most their recent models (especially with them going super thin which comes at a cost) don't come with local dimming zones which hurts their overall black levels. 

Samsung has always had quality issues. But right now they make the better TV.

And I think you saying Oled is a dead end like plasma actually made me lose any form of respect I could have for you. Why is it a dead end? Cause of burn in? if you say that then you really must not know that every display tech in use today wasn't always as good as they are right now. It basically took LCD displays almost 12yrs to get to where they are now. And on all fronts except burn in and overall peak brightness OLED has them beat. 

And the life span of the blue oled is only going to see improvemments with each nee iteration. Especially with LGs WRGB pixel structure. I could start going into all the different reasons why Oled is the future and all round better tech..... but that's not what this thread is about. There are just things oled can do and will do that LED displays never will. And I'll say just one of them, in time Lords will make having 100" plus displays economically feasible. But as I said that's another matter for a different kinda thread. 

The 850D suffers in black uniformity, and the 930D suffers loss of light at the edge of the screen. As far as the local illumination is concerned, you are wrong; the 930D uses a new type of lighting system that combines local dimming with edge lighting. Banding is also not an issue anymore, either. Are you sure you're looking at the right year? 

 

And the better TV is the one that doesn't get returned for QA issues.

 

Combining the above with your faith in OLED puts you right square in the middle of "Oh, he's just wrong" territory. The Blue diode can indeed get better... By sacrificing it's color. To overcome this issue, they would need to find a new way to make the blue, and if it were possible in sure Sony would have done so to keep from burning $30K into their studio monitors. 

 

It's not a single issue that leaves OLED a dead end, it's a number of them. Burn in, grayscale, half-life on the blue, cost of production... Pick one. The biggest issue, though, is the runt TV manufacturer that is LG is the only company really pushing it with any level of success. And their complete disregard for image quality in practice over image quality on a show floor is enough to put up the headstone for the technology. 



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Azuren on 18 September 2016
Zkuq said:
Robert_Downey_Jr. said:

I mean there's a 43" Sony that has HDR10 but no OLED then there's a 55" LG that is OLED but is about $1,000 more expensive.

For 4k, 43" is probably not enough unless you're really close to the TV. The right size depends on the viewing distance.

That chart is honestly bogus. I have people come into my store telling me all about this chart, then I show them a 40" KS6300 and they stop talking about how 4K is a gimmick and start talking about when to get one. 



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Azuren on 18 September 2016
SvennoJ said:
Azuren said:

Noise algorithms generate noise, and for an important reason.

 

When a smart TV takes an image, it doctors it. A bunch of little things to make the image cleaner. Unfortunately, this generates artifacts from "mistakes". Noise algorithms generate a light noise over the image to help render those artifacts unseen, while also remaining light enough to be unseen from a reasonable viewing distance. Not enough, and you see the artifacts. Too much, and you see the noise. LG has an issue with the former, and Panasonic with the latter. Samsung uses noise algorithms as well, but dial them back significantly to retain a "clean" image at the expense of visible artifacting. Sony, on the other hand, found the sweet spot, but even that sweet spot will have visible noise from around 2 feet away. So to keep your game free of nasty artifacts, a Sony is the best choice. 

 

The colors fading is an issue of where those colors come from. The chemicals they use have a half-life, so it sets a definitive lifespan on the panel. Sony actually makes the world's best OLED panel (it's used in studio production for movies like Angry Birds), but the blues go bad even faster; only 6 months until degradation. 

 

And I assure you, that "image retention" is not temporary, and it will stick.

Ah thanks. For my understanding, they add film grain to hide unwanted artifacts, or rather LG doesn't. I thought that wouldn't be neccesary anymore on 10 bit panels, guess not.

How are modern LCD/LED tvs with banding? Journey suffers a lot on my old 8 bit LCD panel due to banding issues that crept up over time. That's where my projector really outperforms LCD tv. Smooth color gradients don't look very nice anymore on my 52" Sharp Aquos. (It's 10 years old though) Ironically it's black level is much better than my faded Panny Plasma.

10-bit really can't solve it, because it's not a panel issue, it's a smart issue. The image is being boned up harder than normal by a lackluster processor. Even a good processor (like what can be found in any Sony, or the KS8000/9000 series) will generate those artifacts, but when you skimp on the processor like LG, the issue is more pronounced. 

 

Banding isn't an issue anymore. 



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Zkuq on 18 September 2016
Azuren said:

That chart is honestly bogus. I have people come into my store telling me all about this chart, then I show them a 40" KS6300 and they stop talking about how 4K is a gimmick and start talking about when to get one. 

At what distance? For my 43" 1080p TV, that seems about right. Of course the distances might not be entirely correct, but the point still stands. I'm sure you can notice some improvement even at longer distance, but at some point it'll be diminishing returns.

Also, the chances are that what you're showing them is better in ways other than just resolution, and they're noticing the other improvements too.



Azuren on 18 September 2016
Zkuq said:
Azuren said:

That chart is honestly bogus. I have people come into my store telling me all about this chart, then I show them a 40" KS6300 and they stop talking about how 4K is a gimmick and start talking about when to get one. 

At what distance? For my 43" 1080p TV, that seems about right. Of course the distances might not be entirely correct, but the point still stands. I'm sure you can notice some improvement even at longer distance, but at some point it'll be diminishing returns.

Also, the chances are that what you're showing them is better in ways other than just resolution, and they're noticing the other improvements too.

Most people notice a difference at roughly 6ft away. We have it sitting next to a 40" w650D from Sony, and both are playing Apollo (one on Bluray, one on 4K Bluray). The typical response is "Wow".



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Intrinsic on 18 September 2016
Azuren said:

The 850D suffers in black uniformity, and the 930D suffers loss of light at the edge of the screen. As far as the local illumination is concerned, you are wrong; the 930D uses a new type of lighting system that combines local dimming with edge lighting. Banding is also not an issue anymore, either. Are you sure you're looking at the right year? 

 

And the better TV is the one that doesn't get returned for QA issues.

 

Combining the above with your faith in OLED puts you right square in the middle of "Oh, he's just wrong" territory. The Blue diode can indeed get better... By sacrificing it's color. To overcome this issue, they would need to find a new way to make the blue, and if it were possible in sure Sony would have done so to keep from burning $30K into their studio monitors. 

 

It's not a single issue that leaves OLED a dead end, it's a number of them. Burn in, grayscale, half-life on the blue, cost of production... Pick one. The biggest issue, though, is the runt TV manufacturer that is LG is the only company really pushing it with any level of success. And their complete disregard for image quality in practice over image quality on a show floor is enough to put up the headstone for the technology. 

 

  • Some sony 2016 models still suffer from banding.
  • 930d? what of the 850d, 700d, 650d that that all don't have local dimming. You talk of the 930d as if that's the only model Sony makes....
  • So you are basically saying it's not possible for oleds to get better? Cause Sony backed out of it? You know Sony also backed out of LCD tech too right?
  • Would you consider Samsung a great display maker today? Would you have said the same thing 10yrs ago?
  • you do know Panasonic is also making annoyed display now right? 
Anyways, I'm not gonna argue with you. You are speaking in absolutes and that's always an indication that there isn't a point having a discussion about the topic in question. Let's see how it all plays out tho. 

 



Chark on 18 September 2016

As others suggest, use rtings.com for some help comparing and knowing what's what.

First off, for PS4 pro you want an HDR 4K TV and one with a wide color gamut. This is key to take advantage of actual HDR. As for the two types of HDR content, HDR10 is going to be more widely used while Dobly Vision is slightly better it isn't as widespread. Dobly Vision is more for 4k Blu ray and can't be firmware added like HDR10 as it needs hardware to run. Not sure if PS4 games are going to have differences if run with Dobly Vision, my guess is no and if so the difference will be minuscule. You might also want to ensure you have a TV with good local dimming as it will enhance the lighting capabilities of HDR content.

The biggest constraints are size and price. Those scale together of course. If you are okay with 49" or less than the Sony X800d will be your best pick since the 49" is for around $800 and it has a wide color gamut. If larger is your thing than the Samsung KS800, Vizio P series, or Sony X850d are great options. All wide color gamut HDR TVs, though the Sony's don't have local dimming and the Samsung's local dimming is pretty poor. P series has Dobly Vision and an update to HDR10 as well as good local dimming. These three range in price depending on size from around $1200-$2000.

I'm going to most likely go with a Samsung KS800 60" as it magically fits the entertainment center I have. That and it should be big enough for a 4' to 8' viewing distance which I what I'm setting my furniture to.

My wish TV is the Sony Z9D 65" for $5000.



Before the PS3 everyone was nice to me :(

Azuren on 18 September 2016
Intrinsic said:
Azuren said:

The 850D suffers in black uniformity, and the 930D suffers loss of light at the edge of the screen. As far as the local illumination is concerned, you are wrong; the 930D uses a new type of lighting system that combines local dimming with edge lighting. Banding is also not an issue anymore, either. Are you sure you're looking at the right year? 

 

And the better TV is the one that doesn't get returned for QA issues.

 

Combining the above with your faith in OLED puts you right square in the middle of "Oh, he's just wrong" territory. The Blue diode can indeed get better... By sacrificing it's color. To overcome this issue, they would need to find a new way to make the blue, and if it were possible in sure Sony would have done so to keep from burning $30K into their studio monitors. 

 

It's not a single issue that leaves OLED a dead end, it's a number of them. Burn in, grayscale, half-life on the blue, cost of production... Pick one. The biggest issue, though, is the runt TV manufacturer that is LG is the only company really pushing it with any level of success. And their complete disregard for image quality in practice over image quality on a show floor is enough to put up the headstone for the technology. 

 

  • Some sony 2016 models still suffer from banding.
  • 930d? what of the 850d that doesn't have local dimming. You talk of the 930d as if that's the only model Sony makes....
  • So you are basically saying it's not possible for oleds to get better? Cause Sony backed out of it? You know Sony also backed out of LCD tech too right?
  • Would you consider Samsung a great display maker today? Would you have said the same thing 10yrs ago?
  • you do know Panasonic is also making annoyed display now right? 
Anyways, I'm not gonna argue with you. You are speaking in absolutes and that's always an indication that there isn't a point having a discussion about the topic in question. Let's see how it all plays out tho. 

 

  • Some of the lower-tier Sony 4K's suffer "light banding".
  • You referred to Sony's slim 2016 TVs as a whole; I corrected that notion by pointing out that the 930D does indeed have local dimming despite being thin.
  • I actually said they can get better, but it would be at a cost. I also said that if there was a way to retain the blues on an OLED while increasing their longevity, Sony would have done it by now since they're dropping loads of cash on replacing them in their movie studios.
  • Samsung does make great displays, and I never said they didn't. I pointed out that they are returned far more often for defects and that they dial back their noise algorithms, but I also suggested them numerous times.
  • Yes, I know Panasonic makes an OLED, and it also looks like garbage. Every single TV they've made this year has fallen so far short of the mark in terms of quality and reliability that we're holding off on stocking any more Panasonic until the new batch next year.
And of course I speak in absolutes, because it is literally my job to know this stuff. I take information given to me by representatives, Rtings, and Cnet, then combine that with common sense (for example, upscaling is a wildly important stat in the age of 4K TVs and 1080p content) . Then I gauge customer reactions and begin pushing out an even number of the TVs. After about a month, I check total returns and the reasons for them, and this year? Sony's had no fatal flaws, had better pricing for 10-bit panels, and had the best customer responses. A KS8000 is no doubt a great TV, but I've had too many come back for buggy OS's and panel failure to put too much stock into them. Yes, their stats beat the Sony equivalent on most levels, but if it can't stay working, then there's not really a contest anymore, is there?


Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

Azuren on 19 September 2016
Chark said:
As others suggest, use rtings.com for some help comparing and knowing what's what.

First off, for PS4 pro you want an HDR 4K TV and one with a wide color gamut. This is key to take advantage of actual HDR. As for the two types of HDR content, HDR10 is going to be more widely used while Dobly Vision is slightly better it isn't as widespread. Dobly Vision is more for 4k Blu ray and can't be firmware added like HDR10 as it needs hardware to run. Not sure if PS4 games are going to have differences if run with Dobly Vision, my guess is no and if so the difference will be minuscule. You might also want to ensure you have a TV with good local dimming as it will enhance the lighting capabilities of HDR content.

The biggest constraints are size and price. Those scale together of course. If you are okay with 49" or less than the Sony X800d will be your best pick since the 49" is for around $800 and it has a wide color gamut. If larger is your thing than the Samsung KS800, Vizio P series, or Sony X850d are great options. All wide color gamut HDR TVs, though the Sony's don't have local dimming and the Samsung's local dimming is pretty poor. P series has Dobly Vision and an update to HDR10 as well as good local dimming. These three range in price depending on size from around $1200-$2000.

I'm going to most likely go with a Samsung KS800 60" as it magically fits the entertainment center I have. That and it should be big enough for a 4' to 8' viewing distance which I what I'm setting my furniture to.

My wish TV is the Sony Z9D 65" for $5000.

Rtings is love, Rtings is life.

Dolby Vision is one of those betamax situations, except Sony's not on the losing side of it. I was told by both our Bravia and PlayStation reps not to expect DV on PS4Pro, since Sony doesn't support it on their TVs. That aside, you really want to avoid LG and Vizio, anyway. The KS8000 is the lowest cost HDR10 with local dimming, but it scored pretty low (along with the KS9000). as far as the "affordable" range is concerned, the 930D has the highest score among the two brands thanks to its Slim Backlight Drive, but it sacrifices input lag for it (I personally own an XBR55X930D, and I don't really find the input lag to be too offputting, tbqh).

And like most of my friends here, you went with the 800D as a good small model, and I couldn't agree more. Though it does suffer from light banding, it's the only 10-bit series available for under $1000, and is nice and thin. No local dimming, but it's not the end of the world. I wouldn't recommend Vizio's, though; they intentionally buy bad panels at a lower price to save on cost. Sure, they pass the savings on to you, but I've never seen a non-Sharp brand come back as much as Vizio.

The KS8000 is a great choice, and if 60" is the perfect size, you won't have any options like that in a Sony, anyway.

We have a Z9D set up next to my manager podium.

I...

 

I...

 

 

T_T



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

Zkuq on 19 September 2016
Azuren said:
Zkuq said:

At what distance? For my 43" 1080p TV, that seems about right. Of course the distances might not be entirely correct, but the point still stands. I'm sure you can notice some improvement even at longer distance, but at some point it'll be diminishing returns.

Also, the chances are that what you're showing them is better in ways other than just resolution, and they're noticing the other improvements too.

Most people notice a difference at roughly 6ft away. We have it sitting next to a 40" w650D from Sony, and both are playing Apollo (one on Bluray, one on 4K Bluray). The typical response is "Wow".

Well, 6' isn't too far from being suitable for 4k according to that chart, so although it's not entirely correct, it's not that far off either. I'd say the chart is at least helpful, even if you can't rely on it completely. Actually it'd be interesting to see a chart about the optimal physical pixel size as a function of eye sight. Would make it really easy to calculate the optimal viewing distance for each eye sight and screen size. In addition to the optimal viewing distance, it would also be interesting to know the limits at which you can still notice the benefits.