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Forums - Gaming Discussion - So the Scorpio....

vivster on 20 August 2016
drkohler said:
vivster said:

1) There is no problem in having 2 versions of the same game.  That's how graphic sliders work.

 

Programming for the Scorpio and programming for the X1 has nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, to do with "how graphic sliders" work. Have you ever thought about how difficult it is to match low speed Jaguar cores with (high speed, low sized) esram? If you solved that problem, then you'd proceed to, in the Scorpio case, working with high speed cores and no esram at all. Whichever way you go, up from X1 to Scorpio, or down from Scorpio to X1, it takes a lot of work and ther won't be any "magical sliders" if you want good perfomance on either console.

It wasn't meant literally. It was meant figuratively as in if you as a developer aren't up to the task to make a game run on multiple platforms you suck. Making different versions of a game isn't a new concept and should at no point be a hindrance concerning the new iterations of consoles.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

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Intrinsic on 20 August 2016
Mar1217 said:

Problem is that the masse don't care about power, they want what is affordable. The majority will probably take the PS4 normal route than the Neo which is still going to be pricey + I think it's probably going to cost a bit more than the PSVR tbh. 

You say this like its a bad thing. If eveeyone (the masses) cared about resolution that much the XB1 would not have sold up to 5M consoles. 

If the masses don't care about resolution and want to go with the cheaper option, then thats exactly what they should do and Sony/MS will still be laughing all the way to the bank. 

I'll tell you this much tho, the second you buy a 4k TV, you will care about having a 4k version of ur console to go along with that TV. If you don't have a 4k Tv, then you shouldn't (and I really mean you shouldn't cause it would be stupid) to care about a 4K console.



Swordmasterman on 20 August 2016
Intrinsic said:
Guitarguy said:


1) The Xbox Scorpio will supposedly have no non-VR exclusive games which will either force much more work on the developers or severely gimp the Scorpio version of the game. Games that run on Scorpio have to run on OG Xbox One(unless I'm mistaken). This will diminish the graphical fidelity of the Scorpio variant games.

No it won't, don't get where this is coming from. The scorpio isnt suddenly less powerful simply because it shares games with the XB1/PS4 and get this.... the PC. It will simply run those games much much better. I don't know why anyone thinks that devs want to be able to make games exclusively for a subset if one platform. If come next year, no lets say come 2018 the scorpio has sold a total of 5M consoles worldwide, that's still just 5M compared to around 35M sold XB1's. You think any dev wants to make a game for just the 5M scorpio owners? Do you think even MS wants that?

2) Even the best current PC GPU cannot handle all 4k games at 60 frames per second and that card alone is worth more than the PS3 was when it first came out(which has other components inside which further inflates the cost of the console)

I doubt the scorpio will cost more than $499. Console pricing is a lot different from PC pricing. As is their performance.

3) With MS putting alot of their exclusive titles on PC and implementing Xbox Play Anywhere, there is less incentive for PC gamers to get a Scorpio and consumers will have another option to play Xbox games in 4k via PC.

On this I agree. And I've said this before. Play anywhere is not good for Xbox. Great for MS though. If only they can get everyone to start buying from their store instead. 

4) Given the cost of the console will probably be close to $1000US, how can it possibly succeed when the PS3 at $599US was simply too much for consumers? That was also considered premium at the time(blu ray drive, 4 USB ports, native PS2 backwards compatibility etc)?

Lol. Ridiculous. The Scorpio won't cost more than $499..... $599 at most. And it doesn't need to "succeed". That's the most important thing about this iterative generational approach. Xbox needs to succeed. The XB1 and the Scorpio are the same thing. They can afford to sell the scorpio at $499/$599 as an elite xbox. As long as there is a $250/$300 Xbox out there. Just look at the $150 elite xbox controller. That's a premium product. Will you call that a failure simply because it's 3x more expensive than a normal controller?

 

Swordmasterman said:

You think that there will be no generations anymore ? I don't buy that Idea. What is the advantage to say "I have a 102910293031039103 of userbase" while they aren't active as the actual console gamers.

I don't know about Microsoft, since it seems that even they don't know what to do, but Sony said that there will have a PS5. If the 2 try to get rid of Generations, so Nintendo or any other company would continue to make generations and be much more successful.

You aren't thinking out of the box. Ok. let's look at a scenario.

Sony makes the PS5 and that comes in 2020. And in 2023/2024 they make the PS5 neo. So we have PS4/PS4n/PS5/PS5n all in a 11yr window. Let's call all these consoles the Orbis platform. All using the same OS on the PS4 today.

Between all these consoles Sony has a total of around 150M users.

If you can play GTA7 on the PS5 at 4k/60fps, yet you can play the same game on the PS4 at 720p/30fps. Do you you think there won't be people willing to pay $100 for that 720p experience? Do you realize that most gamers will at some point upgrade anyways? And that this gen blurring thing is just to ensure that they are locked into the same ecosystem forever?

One day, 12yrs after the PS4 launched, we will no doubt see a game that is not supported on the PS4 running on the PS5/PS5n. But that game could still on some level run on the PS4n. Tjing is by that time the PS4 would have long since been phased out. It would have been obsolete even if it still on some level can play most PS5 games. 

You know that there is no way that  the PS5 will run GTA 7 at 4K/60FPS, don't you ? the game would work at a sub-under-low-HD resolution, if it even run at all, on the PS4 .

What is the sense of upgrading the console only to run at a higher resolution ? Even if 100% of their  power focus on resolution this would not bring 4K/60FPS, and not even in the hell a console would be affordable to run GTA7 at 4K/60FPS. 

If this is the true reason to make another console, lets play some 5-6 Generation games at 12K  120FPS, it seems to be the only thing that matters. This resolution thing will die soon, just like the Bits thing in the consoles of the 80s-90s, the difference in the next big resolution will be so small that they will shift the focus to another things like Effects, Shadows and Physics.



Swordmasterman on 20 August 2016
Intrinsic said:
Normchacho said:

Because they would flounder and die on the hill of higher resolution.

Making consoles prophibitively expesnsive so that a fraction of gamers can play games in native 4K instead of upscaled 4K would be a really dumb idea.

Yes that would be a dumb idea. Good thing thats not whats happenning.

This is all sounding more and more like people just refusing to look at the facts simply cause they don't like the "idea" of something. Yet in so doong they are making their assumptions from a position of stubborn ignorance. 

You and many others talk as if things like the Neo/Scorpio are here to replace everything. They aren't. they are here to give another option. Albeit a more expensive one. 

By definition, the phrase prohibitively expensive means you are walking off customers due to price. That's only true if come the Neo/scorpio launch you simply can't just walk into a store and walk out with a PS4/XB1s respectively. 

Look at it this way. If you want a more powerful version of the PS4/XB1 then you pay more for it. If you want 4k you pay more for it. If you can't afford to pay more for it then you probably also can't afford to buy a 4k tv anyways and still use a 1080p TV and in that case, the cheaper 1080p version of those consoles are still there sitting on shelves for you to buy. Simple as that.

It's like going into buy a TV. they all will play Suicide squad just the same. The exact same movie. However, you have a choice of paying $400 for a 1080p Tv or $1000 for a 4k tv. 

Sony can afford to charge more for 4k cause they aren't planning to nor do they expect to sell that box to everyone. But they know there are those that want that box to go with their 4k TVs. By the time 4k TVs become as accessible as 1080p sets are, those consoles would also be cheaper. 

Please, what exactly is wrong with all of this?

This isn't the same way as other markets.  Tell me a market where you purchase a machine with content that need 3-4 years of development cycle, exclusively for some plataforms, and that have yearly updates ? None.

Your machine would become useless before the development of the game is finished, this isn't fair for the consumer this shift of focus. Isn't like movies or any other kind of midia where there is only a image that only need to be polished, there are several elements in a game that depend on the power of the console and how the developer made the game for that console. If there is just 1 console, they won't have other option, the version will focus on that console, but, if every company have multiple consoles, it will be harder for the developers to work.



barneystinson69 on 20 August 2016

Aaron is a big liar. I trust his mouth with nothing...



Made a bet with LipeJJ and HylianYoshi that the XB1 will reach 30 million before Wii U reaches 15 million. Loser has to get avatar picked by winner for 6 months (or if I lose, either 6 months avatar control for both Lipe and Hylian, or my patrick avatar comes back forever).

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Dark_Feanor on 20 August 2016

It seems some people here never heard of PC and smartphones.

So much drama for a thing that developers have been doing for decades.

And now we have better cross compilers and virtualization than ever.



Dark_Feanor on 20 August 2016
drkohler said:
vivster said:

1) There is no problem in having 2 versions of the same game.  That's how graphic sliders work.

 

Programming for the Scorpio and programming for the X1 has nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, to do with "how graphic sliders" work. Have you ever thought about how difficult it is to match low speed Jaguar cores with (high speed, low sized) esram? If you solved that problem, then you'd proceed to, in the Scorpio case, working with high speed cores and no esram at all. Whichever way you go, up from X1 to Scorpio, or down from Scorpio to X1, it takes a lot of work and ther won't be any "magical sliders" if you want good perfomance on either console.

Hey, are you a game engine developer? Or a CS graduated with Hardware Archtecture?

 

But to the point.

You can see PS4 and XO third party games for your ESRAM drama. I dont know if any game on the XO that run like shit because of ESRAM compared to the PS4.

 

Developers have mastered both systems in a meter of months. There is no reason to belive XO games will  have deteriorated performance because of Scorpio.



Pemalite on 20 August 2016
Guitarguy said:


1) The Xbox Scorpio will supposedly have no non-VR exclusive games which will either force much more work on the developers or severely gimp the Scorpio version of the game. Games that run on Scorpio have to run on OG Xbox One(unless I'm mistaken). This will diminish the graphical fidelity of the Scorpio variant games.

It's not going to be like you get between generations... Scorpio and the Xbox One will share the same feature set, many of the effects can simply be turned on/off or scaled.

Guitarguy said:


2) Even the best current PC GPU cannot handle all 4k games at 60 frames per second and that card alone is worth more than the PS3 was when it first came out(which has other components inside which further inflates the cost of the console)


Correct. The games will be upscaled from a lower resolution... Likely 1080P/1440P/1600P or 1800P.

Guitarguy said:


3) With MS putting alot of their exclusive titles on PC and implementing Xbox Play Anywhere, there is less incentive for PC gamers to get a Scorpio and consumers will have another option to play Xbox games in 4k via PC.


As a high-end PC gamer, I will be getting scorpio, I tend not to look at platforms as a replacement... But rather complimentary... And considering you can buy Xbox One games and get the game free on PC, there is that incentive.


Guitarguy said:


4) Given the cost of the console will probably be close to $1000US, how can it possibly succeed when the PS3 at $599US was simply too much for consumers? That was also considered premium at the time(blu ray drive, 4 USB ports, native PS2 backwards compatibility etc)?

Does anyone else think this all doesn't add up? Am I wrong in my skepticism?


How did you come to those cost conclusions?

JRPGfan said:

If Sony aims for 4.2 Teraflops and 399$, and MS is aiming for near 8 teraflops (almost twice as much), it ll be more than 100$ more expensive.

Based on what? They could be the exact same chip just at different clocks and thus have a very similar manufacturing and binning price.

globalisateur said:

Totally different with Neo. Neo is basically a overclocked PS4 with double GPU with a few enhancements. If you do a game on Neo you'll just have to take the same binaries, deactivate GCN4 memory compression (and maybe others GCN4 enhancements) and reduce the resolution until the game runs the same than on Neo (because it's mandated by Sony). And that's it, your game will work on PS4.

If you develop a game on Scorpio (as most devs will do eventually, it's business), you'll have to re-develop, re-test and re-debug a second version for the XB1 because the tech is totally different so the binaries will be different. Also they'll develop games on Scorpio with no esram limitations so they'll have to do a different version for XB1 in order that the new modified (heavily reduced) framebuffer fit in the esram. 

NEO -> PS4 = PC customizations between different PC specs

Scorpio -> XB1 = Usual port between two different consoles

No. On so many different things here.

kowenicki said:

Home consoles aren't toys any more. Pricing can move upwards as far as I am concerned and will have to... I welcome it.

I just bought a TV for over £2000, why should a console be so cheap and so gimped it cant take advantage of that TV ?

anyhow Scorpio and Neo will have "exclusives" eventually, I don't believe Sony or MS on this.

Agreed.
The regular Xbox One/S will take the lower price point, Scorpio the highest. Can't afford the best? Then don't get the best. I welcome it.

drkohler said:

Programming for the Scorpio and programming for the X1 has nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, to do with "how graphic sliders" work. Have you ever thought about how difficult it is to match low speed Jaguar cores with (high speed, low sized) esram? If you solved that problem, then you'd proceed to, in the Scorpio case, working with high speed cores and no esram at all. Whichever way you go, up from X1 to Scorpio, or down from Scorpio to X1, it takes a lot of work and ther won't be any "magical sliders" if you want good perfomance on either console.

Everything will be abstracted.
So yes "the problem has been solved".


*************

I actually think people are genuinely upset that <insert console here> is no longer going to be the fastest and best thing on the market, competition is an amazing thing.. You can bet Sony will leapfrog Microsoft in time, then Microsoft will again beat Sony.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

niceguygameplayer on 20 August 2016
Guitarguy said:

From a recent interview with Aaron Greenberg, he stated that the Xbox Scorpio will be a very high end product and that it is targetting 4k gaming. But here there are several elements here that confuse me:

1) The Xbox Scorpio will supposedly have no non-VR exclusive games which will either force much more work on the developers or severely gimp the Scorpio version of the game. Games that run on Scorpio have to run on OG Xbox One(unless I'm mistaken). This will diminish the graphical fidelity of the Scorpio variant games.

2) Even the best current PC GPU cannot handle all 4k games at 60 frames per second and that card alone is worth more than the PS3 was when it first came out(which has other components inside which further inflates the cost of the console)

3) With MS putting alot of their exclusive titles on PC and implementing Xbox Play Anywhere, there is less incentive for PC gamers to get a Scorpio and consumers will have another option to play Xbox games in 4k via PC.

4) Given the cost of the console will probably be close to $1000US, how can it possibly succeed when the PS3 at $599US was simply too much for consumers? That was also considered premium at the time(blu ray drive, 4 USB ports, native PS2 backwards compatibility etc)?

Does anyone else think this all doesn't add up? Am I wrong in my skepticism?


No sir. You have reason to be skeptical. 1. Kinect was supposed to be an integral part of XB1's life. It wasn't. 2. The rrod disaster lasted for years after release. It took a lawsuit to get MS to extend the warranty to 3 years. 3. They abandoned the original Xbox quickly. After only 4 years. 4. MS was abandoning the gaming focus of Xbox in favor of a multimedia machine. After facing tough competition from PS4, they refocused on gaming, which showed them to be wishy washy. 5. The power of the cloud was supposed to soup up the XB1 and make it more powerful than PS4. Have you seen this happen? 

 

They have proven themselves not trustworthy. 



Soundwave on 20 August 2016
Swordmasterman said:
KBG29 said:
Microsoft and Sony are turning consoles into highly optimized Home Computers. Scorpio and Neo are going to usher in a new era in tech.

Due to the greatly expanded feature set which will be near what people are used to on PC, the more premium pricing will be quite well accepted.

In addition to Scorpio and Neo, both companies are going to continue to offer lower end models for those that don't need all the bells and whistles.

Basically PlayStation and Xbox are finally leaving the world of being kids toys, and entering the world of personal computers and home electronics. We will have multiple versions that offer a range of prices and features, just like we have with TV's, Recievers, Phones, and everything else in the world of electronics.

You think that there will be no generations anymore ? I don't buy that Idea. What is the advantage to say "I have a 102910293031039103 of userbase" while they aren't active as the actual console gamers.

I don't know about Microsoft, since it seems that even they don't know what to do, but Sony said that there will have a PS5. If the 2 try to get rid of Generations, so Nintendo or any other company would continue to make generations and be much more successful.

Which generation is the PC on? It's basically going to become that.