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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is Trump's real agenda to monetize the fringe right wing base?

Machiavellian said:

There is no privacy when you go for POTUS.  When Trump decided to go for POTUS he should have expected to come clean on any and all dealings he has done his entire life.  Everything comes out and get exposed and it should be that way.  If you got something to hide then come clean with it before hand. 

Really ? You don't seriously expect me to buy your devil's advocate, do you know ? So your telling me he doesn't have the right to keep a tight lid on what he does in the bathroom, sex life, his beliefs or other very personal matters ? 

Machiavellian said:

No matter how you slice it, you are giving Trump a pass.  Everyone including his running mate is releasing their tax returns.  Basically you are telling Trump he does not need to be held to the same standards as everyone else who has run for POTUS.  This is very dangerous as it gives someone like Trump the feeling he can in his own words "shoot someone in times square and not lose a vote".  The reason I want Trump to release his tax returns is because he is making a big deal of it.  Since he can release the years that are not audited, it just shows that he has something to hide 

Cherry pick much with confirmation bias ? FWIW, I'm also interested in seeing Trump's tax returns but your making it out to be a bigger deal than it needs to be when it's not the end all or be all in terms of transparency ... 

Machiavellian said:

No whistleblower need to call out Trump when you can do any simple internet search and get a body of information on Trump.  Hell there is videos from the 80s about his business practices, shortchanging contractors, bankruptcy and ligations, you name it.  Just recently we find out he paid an official in Florida to make his Trump Institute lawsuit go away, including how he did the same thing in Texas.  We find out he charges 4 times the rent in his Building for his staff now that he is getting GOP money to pay the bills.  If those are just dismissible issues to you I guess you really do not care who Trump is as long as the illusion that  he will be better than his old self is there.

Again with the cherry pick's even though donations were in talks before she decided to axe the case ... 

How exactly is him price gouging the VERY property that he owns relevant to your argument ? 

Machiavellian said:

As to your question, not sure what you are looking for. What does keeping tabs on one person has anything to do with what the government is doing.  If that one citizen is someone who will blow up a school, compared to pay to play government deals then you choose.  Everything has a context so put your question in context so I know what you are looking for.

It looks like I failed to make myself clear but what I'm asking is do you SERIOUSLY believe that any random man's personal life secrets is more important to the public than the actions held by officials who make up the federal government ? 

I really do wonder which candidate you support if your truly independent when you don't dare give Clinton the same coverage as Trump when it comes to conspiracy theories ... 



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fatslob, why do you suppose that Trump would have more reason to hide his tax returns than every president since Nixon? Revealing this data has been traditional—and routine—for decades for presidential candidates as part of showing the voters what they are all about. http://www.taxhistory.org/www/website.nsf/web/presidentialtaxreturns

You said, "I've done my research and I've come to the conclusion that Trump is not a politician so how exactly am I looking to put in another corrupt career politician when he isn't even one?"

Well, let me put it this way. You claim that Trump is not at fault for lying to those people in those letters because he never made a legal contract with them. ("In business, a man's word is of no guarantees. Only the legal contract matters.") Where is the legal contract he is making with America now? If he's made a career out of swindling the American public as a businessman, why should we trust that he's not going to swindle the American public as a politician?



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fatslob-:O said:

Really ? You don't seriously expect me to buy your devil's advocate, do you know ? So your telling me he doesn't have the right to keep a tight lid on what he does in the bathroom, sex life, his beliefs or other very personal matters ? 

Machiavellian said:

No he does not have the right to keep a tight lid on any dealings he does present or in the past.  Yes, his sex life, his beliefs and other personal matters actually do play a role in who the people vote for president.  If you have something to hide then its best to get it out there and out of the way before hand.  I believe the President office should be held to a very high standard and I also hold the people going for the job to that high standard.  Do we always get that person, no but I am definitely not going to let them get a pass free card just because they decide something bit of disclosure is not in their best interest. 

fatslob-:O said:

Cherry pick much with confirmation bias ? FWIW, I'm also interested in seeing Trump's tax returns but your making it out to be a bigger deal than it needs to be when it's not the end all or be all in terms of transparency ... 

Machiavellian said:

No, Trump is making his tax returns a bigger deal then it should.  He could have released them at any time and he has gone on record and said he would way before he started the Audit excuse.  Even with the Audit excuse he could release the years that are not audit but he will not do that as well.  By making excuses when you can do something shows that you are hiding something.  The fact that releasing his tax returns is not in his best interest is the real reason why he will not release them which is the bigger problem.

Machiavellian said:

No whistleblower need to call out Trump when you can do any simple internet search and get a body of information on Trump.  Hell there is videos from the 80s about his business practices, shortchanging contractors, bankruptcy and ligations, you name it.  Just recently we find out he paid an official in Florida to make his Trump Institute lawsuit go away, including how he did the same thing in Texas.  We find out he charges 4 times the rent in his Building for his staff now that he is getting GOP money to pay the bills.  If those are just dismissible issues to you I guess you really do not care who Trump is as long as the illusion that  he will be better than his old self is there.

fatslob-:O said:

Again with the cherry pick's even though donations were in talks before she decided to axe the case ... 

How exactly is him price gouging the VERY property that he owns relevant to your argument ? 

Machiavellian said:

Come on, are you really going to try to use that link as proof this was not quid pro quo.  Are you going to act like this isn't how paid to play is done because then you are just trying to put your finger in your ears and defend this type of actions.  Trump himself said he does this type of action which is quoted within the article.  Actually, I think you posted that link just because of the headline because reading the whole thing does not in any way make Trump look good or even show that this was not quid pro quo.  Hell, it even brings up the similar situation in Texas.

 If anything this was the perfect time for him to say this is what I am trying to clean up but instead he went the excuse route again.

As for Trump raising the prices for his rent using GOP money shows greed.  Trump says he raised the rent because of more space, but he cut his staff not long ago and only have 172 employees. Lets break this down.  He is using constitutes money to pad his coffers instead of using that money to put in a ground game in battle states or using it for ads or using it to pay for more staff or anything that shows he is not trying to get all the money he can from his bid for president.  He has charged money to most of his business interest and hiked the prices for those events as well.

Lets think about this, instead of hiking up the price, he should be reducing the price so he has more money to battle Clinton, produce more ground game in battle states, more air time for ads including other forms of media like streaming, hire more staff and fill out his positions.  Instead it looks like and very much is him trying to get as much cash in his pockets as possible.  Its even more damaging when he says he is paying 10 million on air time but only spent 4 million.  Little low rent scams like this is why people should be thinking what will happen if he gets to be president.


fatslob-:O said:

 It looks like I failed to make myself clear but what I'm asking is do you SERIOUSLY believe that any random man's personal life secrets is more important to the public than the actions held by officials who make up the federal government ? 

I really do wonder which candidate you support if your truly independent when you don't dare give Clinton the same coverage as Trump when it comes to conspiracy theories ... 

Machiavellian said:

Trump isn't any random man, he is going for POTUS.  If he was just a random man no one would care about his taxes or anything else.  I know I did not care about Trump preriod until he decided to go for POTUS.  Since Trump decided to go for the highest office in the US he will be deciding actions held by officials and the federal government.  So I still do not get where you are going with this line of though.

As for who I am voting for, I would have voted for John Kasich if he got the republican bid.  The thing is I was looking more at the republican party this year then any other year but instead Trump got the bid and all went to hell.  I have looked over Hillary record and see no real change and pretty much a do and say mentality just like Trump.  So I started to look at Jim Stein and Gary Johnson.  Gary could get my vote but I need to get more info on him.  Right now I have not made a decision but one decision I have made is that under no circumstances will I vote for Trump.



Machiavellian said:

 

No he does not have the right to keep a tight lid on any dealings he does present or in the past.  Yes, his sex life, his beliefs and other personal matters actually do play a role in who the people vote for president.  If you have something to hide then its best to get it out there and out of the way before hand.  I believe the President office should be held to a very high standard and I also hold the people going for the job to that high standard.  Do we always get that person, no but I am definitely not going to let them get a pass free card just because they decide something bit of disclosure is not in their best interest. 

I guess we'll agree to disagree ... 

Machiavellian said:

No, Trump is making his tax returns a bigger deal then it should.  He could have released them at any time and he has gone on record and said he would way before he started the Audit excuse.  Even with the Audit excuse he could release the years that are not audit but he will not do that as well.  By making excuses when you can do something shows that you are hiding something.  The fact that releasing his tax returns is not in his best interest is the real reason why he will not release them which is the bigger problem.

Actually, Trump dialed down about his tax returns since he's not constantly mentioning it up anymore. Avoiding a democrat's oldest attack of accusing scrooge seems like not a bad idea when Trump is fairing far better than Romney did when he released his tax returns according to fivethirtyeight ... 

Machiavellian said:

Come on, are you really going to try to use that link as proof this was not quid pro quo.  Are you going to act like this isn't how paid to play is done because then you are just trying to put your finger in your ears and defend this type of actions.  Trump himself said he does this type of action which is quoted within the article.  Actually, I think you posted that link just because of the headline because reading the whole thing does not in any way make Trump look good or even show that this was not quid pro quo.  Hell, it even brings up the similar situation in Texas.

 If anything this was the perfect time for him to say this is what I am trying to clean up but instead he went the excuse route again.

As for Trump raising the prices for his rent using GOP money shows greed.  Trump says he raised the rent because of more space, but he cut his staff not long ago and only have 172 employees. Lets break this down.  He is using constitutes money to pad his coffers instead of using that money to put in a ground game in battle states or using it for ads or using it to pay for more staff or anything that shows he is not trying to get all the money he can from his bid for president.  He has charged money to most of his business interest and hiked the prices for those events as well.

Lets think about this, instead of hiking up the price, he should be reducing the price so he has more money to battle Clinton, produce more ground game in battle states, more air time for ads including other forms of media like streaming, hire more staff and fill out his positions.  Instead it looks like and very much is him trying to get as much cash in his pockets as possible.  Its even more damaging when he says he is paying 10 million on air time but only spent 4 million.  Little low rent scams like this is why people should be thinking what will happen if he gets to be president.

Trump's donations totalled to less than 2 million dollars in terms of political donations in his ENTIRE LIFE so that is relatively peanuts compared to the fortune he has which shows how little stocks he puts in politics ... 

You calling out for him being greedy only proves my point as to why he shouldn't even think about releasing his tax returns since that's just dumb move to give your oppenents more ammunition. What, is the financial disclosure forums not enough for you to shoot him down ? 

Machiavellian said:

Trump isn't any random man, he is going for POTUS.  If he was just a random man no one would care about his taxes or anything else.  I know I did not care about Trump preriod until he decided to go for POTUS.  Since Trump decided to go for the highest office in the US he will be deciding actions held by officials and the federal government.  So I still do not get where you are going with this line of though.

As for who I am voting for, I would have voted for John Kasich if he got the republican bid.  The thing is I was looking more at the republican party this year then any other year but instead Trump got the bid and all went to hell.  I have looked over Hillary record and see no real change and pretty much a do and say mentality just like Trump.  So I started to look at Jim Stein and Gary Johnson.  Gary could get my vote but I need to get more info on him.  Right now I have not made a decision but one decision I have made is that under no circumstances will I vote for Trump.

Any random guy could apply for POTUS much like how Obama was initially a nobody from the left side of the field compared to Clinton ... 



lynksseus said:
His entire campaign was a scam that financially benefited him. I doubt even Trump himself he'd get to this position. He's lost. So many inconsistencies (and the entire thesaurus' list, equivalent of the word) that spews out of his mouth.

I love how he states he was against Iraq war constantly when there is a video right before the war with him supporting it.  He also states the same thing about Libya even though there is another video tape of himself saying we should go in and take Gaddafi out.  It is as if he believes these videos don't exist anymore.



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bdbdbd said:

Anyway, there should be quite a number of new jobs, meaning less unemployment. Immigration stresses the welfare budget, while new cheap workforce keep the low wage jobs as low wage jobs.

Actually Trump has said he'd raise the taxes of the rich people, or that's actually what I've understood. And this makes sense, as I'd guess every million Trump pays in taxes is going to make him five (because the more money is used, the more it's generated).

When people make more money the price of property as a whole goes up. It's not just the property you can afford because the demand on more expensive property is going to increase aswell. 

Basically it all boils down to people having more disposable income that leads to more loans, that leads to more disposable income, that leads to more loans, etc.

Less unemployment you say after Trump starts a trade war?  Right when the manufacturing industry in USA was trying to prove itself with less workers and more automation.  Should business tax be lower?  Sure but then cut all the loopholes out but that won't happen.  I'm all for a more fair tax but some lobbyist got sweet deals on their tax returns for their industries. 

What about his tax plan?  Seen it before.  Cut taxes even more on the top brackets while barely on the lower brackets.  Who gains? Not many but I am sure Trump will.  He also wants to get rid of the estate tax aka death tax for republicans.  This only affects I believe families with over 5 million dollars.  This would benefit him supposedly too a lot.  Looks to me like he is just hooking himself up with some huge tax breaks.  Show me when trickle down effect has ever worked.  It might as well be said that it is piss in your face effect.  Rich people don't just go starting numerous business usually when they get more tax breaks.  They seem to be sitting on more and more of the cash. 

You know the wage growth for the average American has been shit since about the 80s.  I don't see how Trump's plan to lower the top income tax bracket would amount to shit for jobs or wage growth.  I believe Bush Jr had a negative job growth but apparently we have actually almost recovered from the 08 crash.  Took about 8 years but hell we are here now and I be damn if I see Trump ruin everything by pulling a Bush and giving more tax breaks to the rich and starting a few wars.  When was the last time we had a budget surplus?  It was late Clinton years and then Bush happened (side note that Bush actually had surplus in his first year or two thanks to the budget that was set up for him and which he quickly blew it).

I don't like Clinton either and pretty much don't like any of the two major parties.  Our system is fucked and we need a proportional representation government.  Screw winner takes all and the electoral college.



Final-Fan said:

fatslob, why do you suppose that Trump would have more reason to hide his tax returns than every president since Nixon? Revealing this data has been traditional—and routine—for decades for presidential candidates as part of showing the voters what they are all about. http://www.taxhistory.org/www/website.nsf/web/presidentialtaxreturns

You said, "I've done my research and I've come to the conclusion that Trump is not a politician so how exactly am I looking to put in another corrupt career politician when he isn't even one?"

Well, let me put it this way. You claim that Trump is not at fault for lying to those people in those letters because he never made a legal contract with them. ("In business, a man's word is of no guarantees. Only the legal contract matters.") Where is the legal contract he is making with America now? If he's made a career out of swindling the American public as a businessman, why should we trust that he's not going to swindle the American public as a politician?

Final, this is something that fatslob has no answer for.  I aske the same question stating that a businessman chooses to use underhanded tactics and that is a sign of the person character.  If Trump with use underhanded tactics in business then its no different going for public office.  If anything he would have a greater chance to institute policy that give him even more advantage in business.  The fact that he and his crew are looking to get rid of just about any and all regulations, agencies that keep corporations in check shows his end game.  The thing is, Trump as a businessman is known to lie to get what he wants just like his book "The art of the deal".  Its interesting that Trump gives you a blueprint how he do business, he tells you he is more than willing to tell you what you want to hear then reneged and people still follow along.



sethnintendo said:

With his recent hire as campaign manager (fringe right wing media person) and the people he is supposedly talking to (Roger Ailes and others) is it possible that Donald doesn't even really care that much about winning?  Is he just setting himself up for a run at a extremist right wing network?  This seems to be more and more the case.  Keep buying those Trump hats and shirts!

I mean, that has been a commonly floated out idea. I honestly thought he would have dropped out in the primary phase. Thought he was trying to parlay into a large(r) Apprentice deal/renewal. I still don't think he wants to win, as I imagine that Cruz or Kasich would have massive leads over Hillary right now.



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outlawauron said:

I mean, that has been a commonly floated out idea. I honestly thought he would have dropped out in the primary phase. Thought he was trying to parlay into a large(r) Apprentice deal/renewal. I still don't think he wants to win, as I imagine that Cruz or Kasich would have massive leads over Hillary right now.

That thought is almost just as scary.  I knew Trump was possibly going to win the primaries because when you look at the Republican field they didn't have anyone.  They started with about 20 people that no one really even wanted.  Same probably can be said about the Democrats though.  Basically, I see our country void of any decent leaders. 



sethnintendo said:
outlawauron said:

I mean, that has been a commonly floated out idea. I honestly thought he would have dropped out in the primary phase. Thought he was trying to parlay into a large(r) Apprentice deal/renewal. I still don't think he wants to win, as I imagine that Cruz or Kasich would have massive leads over Hillary right now.

That thought is almost just as scary.  I knew Trump was possibly going to win the primaries because when you look at the Republican field they didn't have anyone.  They started with about 20 people that no one really even wanted.  Same probably can be said about the Democrats though.  Basically, I see our country void of any decent leaders. 

You can easily dislike Cruz as a person, but he's not a bad politician. I was surprised that Trump picked Pence because he's a pretty capable politician. Was expecting more of a radical pick.



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