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Forums - Politics Discussion - US Presidential Election - Monitoring Swing States

Shadow1980 said:
Nymeria said:
That is an awesome map Shadow1980, love the various sliders to project future elections.

I tend to agree on demographic shifts and how party reinvention needs to happen in most countries ever 40-50 years to remain relevant. I am still not sure 2016 will be that soul search year as so many think it is a Trump problem rather than a party one. I think if they get a standard republican in 2020 and still lose (marking 4 consecutive presidential losses) then the reality will hit home.

Going to be an interesting couple of cycles and you touched on two major aspects of young whites and the hispanic community. Failure to get significant numbers in both of these is disaster for a major party going to 2020 and beyond.

The current issue facing the GOP in the form of Trump and his followers is something that's been brewing under the surface for decades. I was born in Georgia and live in South Carolina, and have family in both states (I live in the Augusta area). I grew up in the stereotypical white Southern family. I know full well that racism never died, and still thrives. Often times it manifests itself in the form of nativism. I know many who distrust if not outright hate immigrants (esp. Latinos) and Muslims, because to them the only thing worse than "inner-city welfare queen moochers" are "those damn foreigners." These people who think like this have formed a significant core of the GOP's base for several decades ever since the last big shift in party alignment that began in 1964 following the passage of the Civil Rights Act. The national Republican Party obviously couldn't be overtly supportive of policies that reflect these peoples' prejudices the way the likes of Strom Thurmond or George Wallace did 50-60 years ago. That's because the GOP still needed the support of many non-whites in order to achieve electoral success. For example, members of the GOP may have made appeals to the secure-the-border crowd, but they also made appeals to Latinos, and Reagan and the Bushes had stances on immigration that seem in many ways downright progressive today. Incidentally, George W. Bush did quite well among Latino voters.

Enter Donald Trump. The nativist segment of the GOP base, the ones who want the borders closed, a wall built on our southern border, the "illegals" and Muslims kicked out, and for America in general to turn itself inward and away from the outside world, feel that America is under siege by invading hordes of foreigners. They feel betrayed because the national Republican Party hasn't passed policies that reflect their views on race and immigration (hence the alt-right's insulting neologism "cuckservative"). Trump was the one to speak to them, to say the things they wanted to hear, with no restraint, no filter, and no regard for quaint notions like common decency (because "not being an asshole" is "political correctness"). He's promised the wall, he's stated flatly that most Latino immigrants are the worst sorts of criminal scum (gun-runners, drug dealers, and rapists, according to him), he's threatened to block any and all Muslims from entering the country. It's not dog whistle politics here. It's flat out overt appeals to the natvists. Needless to say, this strategy is not working because it appeals to a relatively narrow segment of white voters. Essentially, his entire campaign has revolved around appealing to two groups 1) the ~40% of GOP primary voters who agree with him on immigration and related issues, and 2) the people who conservative pundits have spent the last 25 years convincing that Hillary Clinton is the devil incarnate. You can't win a national election with just those two groups. His overt misogyny hasn't done him any favors, either. Polls suggested Bush, Rubio, and even Cruz stood a better change of beating Hillary, and Kasich may have won the election soundly, but a commanding plurality of primary voters wanted Trump, not an "establishment" figure that wasn't going to give them everything they wanted.

"Trumpism" is a losing strategy. The GOP faces a conundrum here. Ardent Trump supporters are still going to be a part of their base going forward. They risk splitting the party's current base if they support policies aimed at appealing to minority voters and esp. Latinos. But if white, nativist conservatives are a shrinking crowd and Latinos an ever-growing demographic, the GOP's long-term survival strategy will hinge on abandoning the ideals of Trump and, consequently, those who are strong Trump supporters. Alternately, they could simply abandon any hope of attaining the White House again and focus on shoring up their current base and attempting to capture as many congresstional seats and state/local governments as they can, though even this may be unsustainable if even white voters become more and more progressive over the coming decades as older conservatives gradually die off.

This is probably the most smartest political post on this forum ... ever. Kudos, sir (or madam). 



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Bandorr said:

Guns vs immigration basically. If the demcrats can some how "easy off" guns and the NRA while also supporting immigration and hispanics - it could actually happen.

In theory it shouldn't even be that hard.  The big gun reforms Democrats have been pushing that I'm aware of—like universal background checks, closing the so-called gun show loophole—seem to be supported in public opinion but the NRA has been extremely good at demonizing it as United Nations gun confiscation.  I don't know how they can fix the problem, but it doesn't seem to me like it's an insurmountable one. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Pretty cool thread here, going to be tagging this as it starts to heat up in the next week, I would predict/hope for Clinton but I think if you have a 50/50 gender divide in the US, I really question who is the women going to the polls to vote for Trump, I mean... it has to be a pretty hard pill to swallow based on some of his views and thoughts of them to vote for the guy.



Why not check me out on youtube and help me on the way to 2k subs over at www.youtube.com/stormcloudlive

Shadow1980 said:

"Trumpism" is a losing strategy. The GOP faces a conundrum here. Ardent Trump supporters are still going to be a part of their base going forward. They risk splitting the party's current base if they support policies aimed at appealing to minority voters and esp. Latinos. But if white, nativist conservatives are a shrinking crowd and Latinos an ever-growing demographic, the GOP's long-term survival strategy will hinge on abandoning the ideals of Trump and, consequently, those who are strong Trump supporters. Alternately, they could simply abandon any hope of attaining the White House again and focus on shoring up their current base and attempting to capture as many congresstional seats and state/local governments as they can, though even this may be unsustainable if even white voters become more and more progressive over the coming decades as older conservatives gradually die off.

It seems to me that the scenario you paint would be the best opportunity the country has had in a while to reform the electoral system to allow multi-choice voting schemes, which has only happened in a few places so far.  It would allow the Republicans to "spin off" the self-destructive parts of their base into another party without completely conceding the situation to the Democrats.  But would they be able to do it?  Would the Democrats block reform for the same reason that the Republicans might want it, or would they face sufficient pressure to allow this to happen as well from their own people? 

You seem very well informed about these sorts of topics, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on the possibilities of voting system reform in our country at various levels (national, state, etc.).  I understand Maine is voting on such a system now, though from what little I know about it it's due to everyone hating their governor. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Since the Electoral College is enshrined in the Constitution, it seems pretty hard to get rid of it in our current political situation. However, a workaround might happen much more easily. There's an Interstate Compact just waiting for enough states to agree to it to control the outcome of elections, whose participants will make their electors follow the national popular vote.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact

The only issue I can foresee is if there is a national near-deadlock. As bad as it is to recount a state, imagine recounting the country! Perhaps it should only be in effect if there is a margin of 0.5% or higher at the national level. Sadly, that would mean that Bush v. Gore could have potentially happened even if we had this. At least the "battleground state" effect would be over, though. Heck, maybe 0.2% would be enough considering it would be for the whole nation and not a state. The Kennedy-Nixon election would still be too close to qualify.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Bandorr said:

http://www.270towin.com/maps/gBNmL

That is my take on the election so far. The dark blue and dark red are the states that have voted the same way since 1992.

6 Elections and 24 years I think is a fairly good guideline to go by.

Light blue, and light red are based on previous polls and state history.

Anything that seemed close I left as blank. Nevada, Ohio, North Carolina, and Florida all seem too close to call imo.

I'm not going to pretend Texas, Georgia, or Arizona go blue, and I don't think there is anyway Wisconsin or NH are going red.

It looks like Ohio has a good chance of going red which I find interesting. Ohio has been voting "correctly" since 1964. That is a really long time.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/nh/new_hampshire_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-6022.html

New Hampshire right now has shifted red, what was blue for month a week befor ethe elction has become a coin flip. I didn't see that coming.  This election has been very volatile so after feeling good about predictions I may have to adjust again as last as Monday.



Bandorr said:

True. Most polls put Florida going blue though. Along with Pennyslvania that would easily be enough.

An selection where NH goes red, and Arizona/Georiga/Texas went "Toss Up" would be interesting - if it wasn't so very frightening.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/fl/florida_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5963.html

Looking at latest polls from Flordia note that every result falls very close to the margin of error making this very close and will simply come down to who can get out their respective voters better. 



Shadow1980 said:

My final prediction for what the electoral map will look like after tomorrow night:

Agreed. Although I think that lone electoral vote in Maine's 2nd district will go red. In which case I will be eminently embarrrased of my state.

My brother who's been campaigning in Ohio for Clinton is going get an earful this Thankgiving



I'll try to put final prediction tomorrow before any polls close. Much harder to gauge than 2008 and 2012 were.



Nymeria said:
I'll try to put final prediction tomorrow before any polls close. Much harder to gauge than 2008 and 2012 were.

 

My final map before I go to vote today.

Nevada, North Carolina, and Florida were three I had hardest time settling one given how frequently they fell in the margin or error.  In the end I think Trump's rhetoric against hispanics may cost him Florida and Nevada assuming voter turn out in those communities is high.  North Carolina is a coin flip it seems, so gave slight edge to Trump there.

In any event I don't see his path to victory and would say Clinton has a 90% chance of being the next president given what she can afford to go wrong today (lose Nevada, North Carolina, and Florida) and still get to 270.