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Moonlighter said:
WolfpackN64 said:

But it doesn't matter if it are the same jobs or not. The matter of fact is that the wage gap still exists due to the way the job market is structured and that isn't the womens fault.

Yes, it does matter. First, you are comparing apples to oranges and then claim it doesn't matter if the wage gap statistic compares the same jobs or not. Many people believe the statistic reflects that women are paid less than men for the exact same work. The wage gap doesn't exist, otherwise men are also "victims" to this nonexistent injustice if you were to compare men in lower specialties to women in higher paying specialties. This is why the wage gap is a myth, is bogus, and can't be taken serious. Common sense: if you aren't making good money at a workplace, look for a different job that pays more. I chose not to study in order to become a heart surgeon. Sure it pays a lot, but I'm not interested in what pays the most, I'm interested in what I will enjoy doing. My career path might pay less but that's the choice I'm willing to make. I can't just demand that I be paid for ridiculous wages that equate to another person's earnings, let alone demand wages similar to a complex and difficult occupation - that's completely ridiculous. It just shows narcissism and entitlement. Everyone has the freedom to pursue whichever career they'd like to take. Also, it isn't men's fault either that certain jobs pay more than others. Three words: supply and demand.

Dude, you make no sense sociologically.

Supply and demand has nothing to do with this. If you were to pay someone professing his job enough so that he would be willing and able to profess it, the world would be much more equal. You really should take a course on political and economical elites, because that's more of a reason certain professions get paid more then others. Everyone has the freedom to pursue, but has to make due with the wage that was set by society and you can't question that? That's completely rediculous. Your "common sense" that one should simply look for another job when one doesn't pay enough is complete bollocks. People don't just switch jobs that easy. For some people, that's a difficult process if one finds a good job at all in this job market.

The market is not controlled by the invisible hand, but by the peopel working in it. And there you'll find the reason the wage gap still exists.



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WolfpackN64 said:

Dude, you make no sense sociologically.

Supply and demand has nothing to do with this. If you were to pay someone professing his job enough so that he would be willing and able to profess it, the world would be much more equal. You really should take a course on political and economical elites, because that's more of a reason certain professions get paid more then others. Everyone has the freedom to pursue, but has to make due with the wage that was set by society and you can't question that? That's completely rediculous. Your "common sense" that one should simply look for another job when one doesn't pay enough is complete bollocks. People don't just switch jobs that easy. For some people, that's a difficult process if one finds a good job at all in this job market.

The market is not controlled by the invisible hand, but by the peopel working in it. And there you'll find the reason the wage gap still exists.

Says I makes no sense sociologically, but gives this asinine idea that we should get equally paid throughout all sectors. Your utopian idea is far from realistic and is outside this world. It has nothing to do with supply and demand? When people need a product and service, they PAY for it. Do you think services are free and that the money companies recieve comes from the trees? I can't believe I have to explain this in such simplistic terms and it still doesn't register with you. If nobody had heart problems, do you think heart surgeons would be getting paid as much as they do? When nobody comes for a service or product, employers aren't making money. You expect me to educate myself when you have no idea about economics, let alone the reality of how people get paid. Why would I question how things are structured? It's simple as I need to state over and over: You get paid more for a job when the service is highly in demand and there aren't many workers. And once again, if small jobs were paid equal as dangerous, difficult jobs, no one would work those dangerous and difficult jobs. SO, tell me: In your utopian world, who is going to apply for these necessary jobs? They are needed because of the DEMAND of the services and with a short SUPPLY of workers, who will do the important jobs that keep the homes and facilities running? My common sense is certainly more realistic than your utopian worldview which is out of this world. A lot of people do go for different jobs and different studies. I'm an example of one of them and so are the many I have met in College who changed majors/career fields.



Moonlighter said:

Says I makes no sense sociologically, but gives this asinine idea that we should get equally paid throughout all sectors. Your utopian idea is far from realistic and is outside this world. It has nothing to do with supply and demand? When people need a product and service, they PAY for it. Do you think services are free and that the money companies recieve comes from the trees? I can't believe I have to explain this in such simplistic terms and it still doesn't register with you. If nobody had heart problems, do you think heart surgeons would be getting paid as much as they do? When nobody comes for a service or product, employers aren't making money. You expect me to educate myself when you have no idea about economics, let alone the reality of how people get paid. Why would I question how things are structured? It's simple as I need to state over and over: You get paid more for a job when the service is highly in demand and there aren't many workers. And once again, if small jobs were paid equal as dangerous, difficult jobs, no one would work those dangerous and difficult jobs. SO, tell me: In your utopian world, who is going to apply for these necessary jobs? They are needed because of the DEMAND of the services and with a short SUPPLY of workers, who will do the important jobs that keep the homes and facilities running? My common sense is certainly more realistic than your utopian worldview which is out of this world. A lot of people do go for different jobs and different studies. I'm an example of one of them and so are the many I have met in College who changed majors/career fields.

I'm not utopian my friend. I just know how the world works. Keep telling yourself supply and demand. Of course if no one wanted a certain service no one would provide it, that's basic economic stuff. I studied economics before, I know how it works.

But you seem to completely forget another factor. Personal entitlement. People have an idea in their society how much something is worth or how much someone should be paid. That idea can be enforced or discouraged and the very way a society is structured makes it so that how much a certain job gets paid actually varies very little even depending on supply and demand.

Next your going to tell me a CEO deserves to earn over 50x the wage of someone at the bottom of a company.



binary solo said:
Metroid33slayer said:

Earnings gap not wage gap, It's not the fault of men that they suceed in the higher paying professions and out earn women.. complaining that men get paid more then women is like complaining that Brain surgeons get paid more than Street cleaners and blaming it on prejudice against steet cleaners.

That's a false comparison though. The idea is equal pay for work of equal value. Why are professions dominated by men still paid more than professions that are dominated by women even when both professions are more or less the same in terms of qualification and skill?

Very few people argue that street cleaner as a career is of equal value to society as surgeon. Though one might also argue that the average person benefits more over their lifetime from street cleaners and garbage collectors (sanitation workers in general) than they do from surgeons. After all, public sanitation has done more to exend the average lifespan of people and reduce the number of days of lost productivity from illness than surgeons. Hence sanitation workers are more beneficial to society than surgeons. Ref Hitchhikers Guide on the essential utility of sanitation workers, as opposed to the continued uselessness of account executives and marketing analysts. 

Men aren't paid higher due to being men as feminists say, it is because they choose professions that have higher pay. Who said both professions are of the same skill and qualification? In general women prefer arts while men go for science and both go in big numbers to pursue commerce. Science requires more reasoning, logic and skill and a lot more hard work than arts, so professions in this field pay more. If women chose sciences in large numbers like men, the wage gap wouldn't exist.

Brain surgeons aren't useful for everyone, but they are highly specialised, payed a lot to study their subjects in college and have studied hard to be where they are. The same is not true for street cleaners. If what you said was right, people simply wouldn't opt for going into medical fields when hey can earn the same by cleaning streets. Then when a person would require a brain surgeon, where would they find one? Same is true for all specialised fields. The higher income in these fields brings hard working people to them.



Question 24... do I know what a bad feminist is

the next question should just be more vague and ask "why though?" without any explanation.



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a proud 17/50 I though I would get a lot less and that they would curse me for the score...

But yes, most points were ridiculous.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

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Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

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WolfpackN64 said:

 

I'm not utopian my friend. I just know how the world works. Keep telling yourself supply and demand. Of course if no one wanted a certain service no one would provide it, that's basic economic stuff. I studied economics before, I know how it works.

But you seem to completely forget another factor. Personal entitlement. People have an idea in their society how much something is worth or how much someone should be paid. That idea can be enforced or discouraged and the very way a society is structured makes it so that how much a certain job gets paid actually varies very little even depending on supply and demand.

Next your going to tell me a CEO deserves to earn over 50x the wage of someone at the bottom of a company.

If you knew how the world works, these arguments you present wouldn't be so unrealistic, bro. Having taken economics before doesn't mean you know your stuff. I was a previous math major beforehand, that doesn't mean I'm an expert in Calculus or Topology. Also, actual economists know their stuff more than the both of us and many say that the gender wage gap doesn't take variables into consideration (also noted by Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers).

Personal entitlement doesn't mean you can demand your work be paid at the same rate as other necessary occupations. That's just plain ridiculous. Do you think a McDonald's sales associate can demand he/she be paid the same as a brain surgeon? Again, if this occured, NO ONE would become a brain surgeon since it cost a huge investment, time and discipine to become one. Then what will happen when there's millions of people with brain problems and there's only .01% brain surgeons to accomodate them? I'd like to hear what you propose.

First off, which occupation are you comparing this CEO to? Secondly, if you've read my actual arguments, I never said anyone deserves what they get paid, I'm saying they're getting paid the money they get for a reason. If one isn't satisfied with their earnings, they have the feedom to leave and pursue other alternatives.



Moonlighter said:

If you knew how the world works, these arguments you present wouldn't be so unrealistic, bro. Having taken economics before doesn't mean you know your stuff. I was a previous math major beforehand, that doesn't mean I'm an expert in Calculus or Topology. Also, actual economists know their stuff more than the both of us and many say that the gender wage gap doesn't take variables into consideration (also noted by Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers).

Personal entitlement doesn't mean you can demand your work be paid at the same rate as other necessary occupations. That's just plain ridiculous. Do you think a McDonald's sales associate can demand he/she be paid the same as a brain surgeon? Again, if this occured, NO ONE would become a brain surgeon since it cost a huge investment, time and discipine to become one. Then what will happen when there's millions of people with brain problems and there's only .01% brain surgeons to accomodate them? I'd like to hear what you propose.

First off, which occupation are you comparing this CEO to? Secondly, if you've read my actual arguments, I never said anyone deserves what they get paid, I'm saying they're getting paid the money they get for a reason. If one isn't satisfied with their earnings, they have the feedom to leave and pursue other alternatives.

The investment point is something else. Education should be free, in many countries it isn't. And I get that in the Anglo-Saxon world, it's a huge investment.

But I get the impression that we're discussing I parallels, I think the major point of difference is that you think the job market is more flexible and one can choose to go for a higher paying job while I state it's not that easy at all and they're societal factors with more influence in the job market then you think.



WolfpackN64 said:

 

The investment point is something else. Education should be free, in many countries it isn't. And I get that in the Anglo-Saxon world, it's a huge investment.

But I get the impression that we're discussing I parallels, I think the major point of difference is that you think the job market is more flexible and one can choose to go for a higher paying job while I state it's not that easy at all and they're societal factors with more influence in the job market then you think.

It isn't really something else though. But yes, education is not free in many countries. I took the chances and have my B.A. degree. I sure owe a lot, but I'm making progress. Most students owe more than 3X what I owe, depending on what College or University they attended.

We are discussing parallels. That isn't what I'm saying though. I'm saying that we all have the freedom to choose different career paths to accomodate ourselves. Not everyone is unhappy working at whichever occupation they hold for the average earnings they make.

But think about this: How much do female models make compared to a dangerous occupation such as a miner or petroleum engineer where men mostly occupy? One of the top female models earned $42 million in a year. Thing is, this job is based on revenue and how much money the model can bring in. Men don't complain about that on the news though. They know how reality is and look to make a living regardless. If we entered a major depression, I'm positive fashion models and even agencies wouldn't be employed at all because  peope who normally spend on fashion wouldn't think or care about fashion when they have to think carefully about maintaing their lives. 

That's why it is crucial if people want to talk about equal pay, it remain in the same company under the same title. I understand you want to see increased wages in low paying sectors, but it isn't as easy as you think.



Moonlighter said:

It isn't really something else though. But yes, education is not free in many countries. I took the chances and have my B.A. degree. I sure owe a lot, but I'm making progress. Most students owe more than 3X what I owe, depending on what College or University they attended.

We are discussing parallels. That isn't what I'm saying though. I'm saying that we all have the freedom to choose different career paths to accomodate ourselves. Not everyone is unhappy working at whichever occupation they hold for the average earnings they make.

But think about this: How much do female models make compared to a dangerous occupation such as a miner or petroleum engineer where men mostly occupy? One of the top female models earned $42 million in a year. Thing is, this job is based on revenue and how much money the model can bring in. Men don't complain about that on the news though. They know how reality is and look to make a living regardless. If we entered a major depression, I'm positive fashion models and even agencies wouldn't be employed at all because  peope who normally spend on fashion wouldn't think or care about fashion when they have to think carefully about maintaing their lives. 

That's why it is crucial if people want to talk about equal pay, it remain in the same company under the same title. I understand you want to see increased wages in low paying sectors, but it isn't as easy as you think.

One thing I definitly learned in college is that nothing is ever easy. When there is an economic crises, like there have been before and there will be again, high paying work usually doesn't suffer. Who looks or shows interest in high end modelling? Not the common folk.

What is most disgusting is that economic parasites like vulture funds and hedgefunds make an enormous amount of money. The economic system isn't just about facing hard realities though, it's also wanting to change them.