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Forums - Politics Discussion - Where Police/African American Relations Went Wrong (A Working Explanation?)

 

...continuation from above.

Goatseye said:

Do you realize that there are black officers as well in the police force?

And by running into you in the football thread, it doesn't surprise me your stand here. 

 

Slimebeast said:

To be completely honest, to some extent I understand these snipers that took the law in their own hands. Enuff is enuff.

The police culture is so out of touch with rest of American society and values, and drastic measures are needed for change to happen. It's happened time and time again these horrible murders commited by cops who show no respect for human life. Who are evil and selfish to the very core of their corrupt souls. That said, I'm not convinced the whole explanation or even the main explanation is racism, and I fear there are lots of white victims of police violent too that the media doesn't necessarily portray always. It could also be other aspects human values and morals that are twisted and wrong in cop culture.

I wouldn't have been angry if some of the murdering cops had been eliminated on the spot.

It's not certain this mass shooting will lead to a spiral of increased violence, it actually could lead to reform. Because thankfully it's not cops who rule society, it's the President.

SvennoJ said it well, what I mean could be a good consequence of what happened with the killed police officers:

"Sometimes a truly shocking event is needed to wake up everyone instead of remaining the status quo of, oh well another police shooting, forgotten in a few days."

 

 

 

Slimebeast said:
Stellar_Fungk said:

So people with anxeity that get panic attacks from time to time shouldn't be able to live among people and get sterilized? Are you studying eugenics on human beings or something?

Btw, I'm not protecting this cop's shooting. It wasn't his panic that caused the murder, but his thoughts. And his thoughts is based on society's health. People with anxiety and panic attacks should be helped with therapy, not sterilized. I get panic attacks time to time but it doesn't mean I want to shoot somebody.

Yes, a guy making such a bad judgment to the point that he killed an innocent human being should be locked away from society, regardless if he has panic attacks or not. Either life in jail or put him to death by the principle of an eye for an eye.

Don't make him the victim.

.

Slimebeast said:
IkePoR said:

Didn't you hear?  Only black people can be thugs.  That's why this guy is dead.  The cop was just doing his job.  Look, after the police investigate themselves, they'll find they did no wrong doing.  Trust me!

If that happens they should go and trash the whole town. And if the police officer personally after being freed is such a dishonest and immoral douche bag that he's unwilling to take his moral responsibility, and he refuses to go to jail by his own choice, then people must try to stalk and harrass the man for the rest of his cowardly life.



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pokoko said:
You know, honestly, the focus on improving the situation for African Americans kind of annoys me.

There are more white people living in poverty in the United States than black people. There are more Latino people living in poverty in the United States than black people. The focus should be on providing more opportunities for people to pull themselves up, regardless of race. When you're on the bottom, you don't give a damn about percentages.

At some level, I agree. I'm not advocating for "let's fix things for black people" and forget about everything else. More than anything, this thread is trying to elaborate on why relations between African Americans and police have been and currently are so high, and what could be done to improve that problem. Ideally, the solution would benefit all races, not just blacks.

With that said, I feel the need to address the bolded, because the way you've phrased it is just misleading. Yes, there are more white people in poverty in the US. There are also far more white people living in the US in general. We would expect a demographic that makes up 62% of the country's population to have the most poor people, the most rich people, and the most middle class people. It's simply by virtue of being the biggest population. Only 9.9% of whites live in poverty, however, compared to 26.6% of Hispanics and 27.8% of blacks. Poverty affects minorities far more disproportionately than it does whites.



Slimebeast said:
Goatseye said:

Do you realize that there are black officers as well in the police force?

And by running into you in the football thread, it doesn't surprise me your stand here. 

Please, read all my posts in the thread first.

Seriously, don't be so quick to judge. I'm quite neutral on this issue, or rather I'm very critical of American police while I don't think it's bonafide racism that is the major explanatory factor.

Of course there are tons of black police officers. But he just described them as a white group that is racist towards black people. So don't you come and blame me for that!

And what do you mean "the football thread"? In the news thread about the black people who got innocently shot by policemen, I was the only one who demanded that the police officers would be put to death on the very spot they commited their evil crimes.

First of all, why would you say that? That is not how a civilized and functional society with proper judicial system should work. 

Then, he didn't mention white police officers. One of the biggest case of police brutality involves mostly black police officers that killed a handcuffed black guy inside of a police van.

And this issue is blown out of proportion by the news selling media.

People protest for the cops to stop murdering UNARMED people; it doesn't matter their past, if they didn't pull a gun or a blade to attack, they shouldn't be put down solely on the premise of "I feared for my life".



This is STILL completely missing the mark. This literally dates back hundreds of years. 200 years of slavery, and segregation only JUST ended 50 years ago.

I know you're young. And 50 years seems like the distant past. But some people remember the KKK hanging black people from trees and burning down black churches. And JUST BECAUSE SEGREGATION ENDED DOESN'T MEAN THAT RACISM JUST DISAPPEARED!

I know this may seem crazy, but the ONLY way to truly fight this is admitting that racism still exists. We can't keep saying "oh those damn black people. They just keep complaining". Well, believe it or not, they're complaining for a reason...and we keep ignoring them.

We have to stop and educate people. We need to treat each other justly. We can't keep assuming that pro-BLM means ANTI-cop! People are pissed because civilians are straight up getting murdered by cops, and no one is batting an eye. We're all equals. We need to act like it.

The opposite of love is indifference. Not hate.



Pristine20 said:
hershel_layton said:

I never said the recent people shot were evil. Heck, we don't have the entire story 

 

I was simply staring how society thinks. 

Depends on what part of the society you're referring to. Read some right wing blogs and commentary and you'll see  much more evidence of the statement I made than yours.

Look, I despise the far right and left 

 

All I truly desire to see is everyone have a chance in life and not be attacked for whoever they are.

 

Unfortunately, people are close minded. Nowadays people paint everything as black and white. No one realizes that, hey, we all make mistakes and can all improve our behaviour with people.



 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

12/22/2016- Made a bet with Ganoncrotch that the first 6 months of 2017 will be worse than 2016. A poll will be made to determine the winner. Loser has to take a picture of them imitating their profile picture.

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Is it okay to commit violence because you have less money? Is that a valid excuse? Discuz.



pokoko said:
You know, honestly, the focus on improving the situation for African Americans kind of annoys me.

There are more white people living in poverty in the United States than black people. There are more Latino people living in poverty in the United States than black people. The focus should be on providing more opportunities for people to pull themselves up, regardless of race. When you're on the bottom, you don't give a damn about percentages.

I attended the poorest high school in a poor agricultural county in a poor state. The white/black ratio in my grade was roughly equal. That was before Mexican Americans began flooding the school system en mass. I knew people of each race that were as poor as dirt.

Some of them were terrible human beings. Some of the rich kids whose daddies were "high up" at the local saw mill were terrible people, too. The difference, though, once high school was over, was that those rich kids usually ended up okay because they had more support, more resources available, and they also had higher expectations placed upon them. All of that makes a big impact when you're thinking about what you can do with your life.

Before we get to that point, though, we've got to fix the school system so that it stops focusing on grades and those students who are good at the grading game.

Education assistence in the inner city schools have been debated to death and nothing improved.

Some of the schools here are worse than 3rd world public schools in term of pedagogy. Kids are not properly taught and schools are under funded.

Also, one thing that people forget, we are more divided than people think. As a nation, black people have less than 40 years of independence.  A community rarely thrives in its infancy. Also, black community still relies on white community to succeed. Black people couldn't vote before 1960's, it was virtually impossible to get mortgage/ bank loans and higher education wasn't a reality for most of the community back then. What's the inheritance the generation after civil rights got? More poverty and frustration.

Progress is a slow process and America will only gain if we get past these petty race wars. 



MTZehvor said:
pokoko said:
You know, honestly, the focus on improving the situation for African Americans kind of annoys me.

There are more white people living in poverty in the United States than black people. There are more Latino people living in poverty in the United States than black people. The focus should be on providing more opportunities for people to pull themselves up, regardless of race. When you're on the bottom, you don't give a damn about percentages.

At some level, I agree. I'm not advocating for "let's fix things for black people" and forget about everything else. More than anything, this thread is trying to elaborate on why relations between African Americans and police have been and currently are so high, and what could be done to improve that problem. Ideally, the solution would benefit all races, not just blacks.

With that said, I feel the need to address the bolded, because the way you've phrased it is just misleading. Yes, there are more white people in poverty in the US. There are also far more white people living in the US in general. We would expect a demographic that makes up 62% of the country's population to have the most poor people, the most rich people, and the most middle class people. It's simply by virtue of being the biggest population. Only 9.9% of whites live in poverty, however, compared to 26.6% of Hispanics and 27.8% of blacks. Poverty affects minorities far more disproportionately than it does whites.

Misleading?  It's not misleading, it's a fact.  In absolutely no way did I suggest that the percentages were higher or equal; in fact, I said "when you're on the bottom, you don't give a damn about percentages."  You're going to have to explain to me how anything I said was misleading.

Seriously, people are people, they're not ratios, they're not percentages.  Someone in that 9.9% is every bit as important as someone in that 27.8% and vice versa.

That need to label and sort people by secondary demographics is part of the problem.  You're telling one group that they're a special case, they should get used to assistance, they should depend on it, that they need it more because of the color of their skin.  It's ultimately condescending and debilitating.  On the other hand, you're telling another group that they don't matter as much because more people with their skin color are successful.  They're the chaff, they're the acceptable margin of loss.  

Yet another layer of division that just adds to the feelings of resentment.

The goal should be to treat everyone the same, not to keep pushing in a wedge until the gulf is unspannable and you've got two sides looking at each other with suspicion and jealousy.  It should be as simple as people who need help, not people who deserve help more because of percentages.



Goatseye said:
Slimebeast said:

Please, read all my posts in the thread first.

Seriously, don't be so quick to judge. I'm quite neutral on this issue, or rather I'm very critical of American police while I don't think it's bonafide racism that is the major explanatory factor.

Of course there are tons of black police officers. But he just described them as a white group that is racist towards black people. So don't you come and blame me for that!

And what do you mean "the football thread"? In the news thread about the black people who got innocently shot by policemen, I was the only one who demanded that the police officers would be put to death on the very spot they commited their evil crimes.

First of all, why would you say that? That is not how a civilized and functional society with proper judicial system should work. 

Then, he didn't mention white police officers. One of the biggest case of police brutality involves mostly black police officers that killed a handcuffed black guy inside of a police van.

And this issue is blown out of proportion by the news selling media.

People protest for the cops to stop murdering UNARMED people; it doesn't matter their past, if they didn't pull a gun or a blade to attack, they shouldn't be put down solely on the premise of "I feared for my life".

Don't move the goalposts.

I provided that quote to show you that you had the wrong impression about my stance on the issue of white cops versus blacks being shot. I wanted to correct your prejudice of me. It's a different discussion what the exact punishment for those crimes should be, and I may or may not have meant literally what I wrote there about killing the cops on the spot and may or may not have been in a slightly agitated state when I wrote that. But by showing you those quotes I was trying to show you the tone, where I'm leaning on this issue and hoping to change your erroneus view of me. But where is your acknowledgment of that? Instead, you just take the chance to try and "win".

Yes, he meant white police officers. He didn't refer to black officers whatsoever, they exist, the evil ones too, of course they do, but they were not relevant to his argument and dont fit into his picture of selling the notion of white racism.

I'm saddened about this dishonesty in discussions. You know he meant white racist cops versus black victims. Stop playing games. I'm so disappointed in you now.



Dyllyo said:
This is STILL completely missing the mark. This literally dates back hundreds of years. 200 years of slavery, and segregation only JUST ended 50 years ago.

I know you're young. And 50 years seems like the distant past. But some people remember the KKK hanging black people from trees and burning down black churches. And JUST BECAUSE SEGREGATION ENDED DOESN'T MEAN THAT RACISM JUST DISAPPEARED!

I know this may seem crazy, but the ONLY way to truly fight this is admitting that racism still exists. We can't keep saying "oh those damn black people. They just keep complaining". Well, believe it or not, they're complaining for a reason...and we keep ignoring them.

We have to stop and educate people. We need to treat each other justly. We can't keep assuming that pro-BLM means ANTI-cop! People are pissed because civilians are straight up getting murdered by cops, and no one is batting an eye. We're all equals. We need to act like it.

The opposite of love is indifference. Not hate.

I...honestly have no idea what this is responding to. If it's my OP, then I don't think I advocated any of the things that you're arguing against. If it's to someone in the thread, then could you perhaps tag them or at least reference their post so we know what/who you're talking about?

pokoko said:
MTZehvor said:

At some level, I agree. I'm not advocating for "let's fix things for black people" and forget about everything else. More than anything, this thread is trying to elaborate on why relations between African Americans and police have been and currently are so high, and what could be done to improve that problem. Ideally, the solution would benefit all races, not just blacks.

With that said, I feel the need to address the bolded, because the way you've phrased it is just misleading. Yes, there are more white people in poverty in the US. There are also far more white people living in the US in general. We would expect a demographic that makes up 62% of the country's population to have the most poor people, the most rich people, and the most middle class people. It's simply by virtue of being the biggest population. Only 9.9% of whites live in poverty, however, compared to 26.6% of Hispanics and 27.8% of blacks. Poverty affects minorities far more disproportionately than it does whites.

Misleading?  It's not misleading, it's a fact.  In absolutely no way did I suggest that the percentages were higher or equal; in fact, I said "when you're on the bottom, you don't give a damn about percentages."  You're going to have to explain to me how anything I said was misleading.

Seriously, people are people, they're not ratios, they're not percentages.  Someone in that 9.9% is every bit as important as someone in that 27.8% and vice versa.

That need to label and sort people by secondary demographics is part of the problem.  You're telling one group that they're a special case, they should get used to assistance, they should depend on it, that they need it more because of the color of their skin.  It's ultimately condescending and debilitating.  On the other hand, you're telling another group that they don't matter as much because more people with their skin color are successful.  They're the chaff, they're the acceptable margin of loss.  

Yet another layer of division that just adds to the feelings of resentment.

The goal should be to treat everyone the same, not to keep pushing in a wedge until the gulf is unspannable and you've got two sides looking at each other with suspicion and jealousy.  It should be as simple as people who need help, not people who deserve help more because of percentages.

I'll recant the misleading bit, because I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

As for statistics, I think you misunderstand the purpose of them in my argument. No one is claiming that one person in the 9.9% is less or more important than someone in the 27.8%. Nor is it anywhere near condescending or debilitating, or to make people less than people. Quite honestly, I can't think of anyone who's used statistics to say that a group doesn't matter as much, with the possible exception of Bernie Sanders arguing that white people don't know what it's like to be poor. The point is not to argue that poor black people are more or less "important" than white people, it's about identifying what common problems are. If we're trying to figure out as a society what is causing these two groups to not get along very well (in this case, police and blacks), then statistics are a way of identifying where the issues might lie. When we find anomalies between a group and the rest of the population, that's an indicator that it might be a cause.

To my knowledge, and feel free to correct me if you have a counter example, almost no one I can think of argues that "a poor black person deserves your help more than a poor white person because he's black." I certainly haven't argued that on this thread, and I can't think of a single major organization or political pundit that would support that either.