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Forums - General Discussion - Is becoming a vegetarian/vegan worth it?

scrapking said:
SvennoJ said:

Perhaps some perspective could help

https://www.thinkingnutrition.com.au/broccoli-bad-for-you/
Long-lived people don’t avoid dairy foods, or soy or gluten. They don’t calculate the glycaemic index of their meals. They don’t ruminate on if the grains they are eating are stopping the absorption of other nutrients. They don’t take supplements. They eat. They move. They enjoy. They socially engage with their community in person. They live.

You can villify meat and dairy products all day, in the end it hasn't stopped earth's population explosion in the slightest.

Interesting link.  I think I've read it before (failing that, I read something similar).  I agree that orthorexia can be a serious issue for some people.

I don't calculate the gclycemic index of my meals (no need, the odds of me getting diabetes from a plant-based diet focused around whole foods is next to non-existant).  I don't avoid gluten, lots of really healthy foods contain gluten, and I don't have celiac disease.  I don't avoid soy, as it's one of the healthiest beans on the planet, despite fear-mongering to the contrary.  I don't ruminate on the grains I'm eating creating malabsorption issues, because if you're eating the rainbow then you don't tend to suffer that effect (vitamin C improves the absorption of a raft of other nutrients, including iron).  I don't take supplements, aside from vitamin D in the winter (and only because I live in a northern climate).

I do avoid dairy.  As a species we only started eating dairy about 10K years ago, which is a blink of an eye evolutionarily.  The populations that consume the most dairy tend to have the most osteoporosis despite the dairy industry's calcium claims.  Plus there are plenty of ethical issues with dairy where I would be less happy with life if I were participating in them, so not consuming dairy contributes to a happier life for me, which is ultimately what the article you linked to is all about.

Meat and dairy aren't stopping Earth's population explosion as the health problems from them tend to come well after reproductive years, so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

What about breast-feeding? We've been consuming that for far longer than 10,000 years I imagine.



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scrapking said:

What evidence do you have that people who choose a vegan lifestyle are more health conscious on average?  I don't see a lot of evidence for that.  I see more evidence for the reverse, I see omnivores buying supplements like crazy, going to the gym, obsessing over fish and so-called "white meat", etc.  Until recently the vegan movement was focused on animal welfare, not optimal health.  I'm a part of a vegan Facebook group with over 2000 members, and another with over 5000 members, and there are legions of people there getting excited every time some new processed food comes out (or some grocery store puts a popular processed food on sale).  This is a commonly asserted claim, but it seems to fly in the face of a lot of evidence.  Has it ever been studied, or are you simply assuming it's true?

I'm right with you that a stress reduced lifestyle is good for health.  I think stress reduction, lots of sleep, and an appropriate diet are the three pillars of health, but I wouldn't put stress reduction above the other two.

To your first point, the independent research continues to call BS on the idea that dairy and eggs are good for you.  The science suggesting otherwise is being funded by vested interests connected to industries that sell cholesterol laden foods, and they're manipulating the science in the same way the tobacco industry used to before they gave up trying to defend tobacco on the health front.

If you want a study that suggests cholesterol is not bad for you, there are several ways to do it.  For example:

- Construct a study that *slightly* increases or slight reduces cholesterol, find no statistically significant change, and declare victory.  This is akin to taking someone who smokes two packs of cigarettes a day and doing a study that reduces that by one cigarette, and finding no significant health benefit to the reduction.  Similarly, if you take someone who smokes two packs a day and increase their cigarette smoking by one cigarette you're unlikely to find a significant health detriment.

- Publication bias.  Independent research is likely to publish their findings no matter what, but research funded by vested interests typically only publishes when they get the result they want.  If they come up with results that don't fit their narrative, you'll never hear about it.  Yet the research funded by public health agencies, charities, etc., usually gets published whatever the result.

- Correlative studies on cholesterol is another way they manipulate the data.  For example, put people on diets with the same amount of cholesterol, note that each participant ends up with different levels of cholesterol, declare no correlation, and that eating cholesterol makes no difference to health.  Declare victory.

The above is the approach of the vested interests.  Independent research continues to do studies where they take people and significantly increase their cholesterol intake, and they find bad cholesterol skyrockets.  Or take groups of people and significantly reduce their cholesterol intake, and their bad cholesterol plummets.  Open and shut.

The Canadian government for its most recent round of proposed nutrition guidelines chose to ignore *all* research funded by vested interests.  Didn't matter if it was funded by a dairy board, or an alliance of rice producers.  And they concluded that while research funded by vested interests was all over the place, the independent research all had a consistent narrative that cholesterol was bad, caused heart disease, and should be reduced in the diet for optimal health.  That was preceded by a similar decision by the Brazilian government, and followed up by a similar decision by a Northern European government.

The research that says cholesterol is A-OK is bad science.  It usually doesn't get submitted to peer review, and generally fails peer review when it does get submitted.  It's true junk science in the worst sense of the word.  That's not cherry-picking, as that's ignoring not only the pro-cholesterol science paid for by meat/dairy/egg industry, it's also ignoring science by the pomegranate industry trying to oversell the health benefits of their product.  It's choosing to look at independent science that is submitted to rigourous scientific scrutiny only, and that's increasingly the approach that government health agencies are having to take as vested interests become more daring in their attempts to over-sell their products.

What evidence? Studies on the internet... They all come disclaimers that correlation does not prove causation. For example that study with 130k people over 30 years: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/vegan-meat-life-expectancy-eggs-dairy-research-a7168036.html
As would be expected, the risk was found to be most pronounced among people who also engaged in other unhealthy activities , including having a history of smoking, drinking heavily or being obese.

However, caution should be exercised when interpreting the results, as other more complex social and environment factors could affect the results rather than being solely related to diet. For instance, vegans are more likely to be younger than the general population and therefore have much lower mortality rates. Similarly, vegans can be more likely to come from socially affluent backgrounds, which can also influence mortality risk.

Then you have stuff that finds now difference or even shows the opposite with unhealthy vegetarians, but I guess that's sponsored by the evil dairy industry :)
https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/do-vegetarians-vegans-really-life-longer

Anyway what is your explanation for the French paradox?



I've been vegetarian for some 23-24 years - and the worst thing I've seen in all those years are zealots on all sides of topic trying to sell you on their lifestyle and/or prove their way is the only right way - seems uncanny familiar with certain other topic.

Live and let die.



scrapking said:
ArchangelMadzz said:
If you can't live with the horror of factory farming and going organic doesn't cut it then go for it.

Just make sure you know what you're doing as going Vegan can be bad for your health if you're ill informed.

Staying an omnivore is even more likely to be bad for your health, well informed or not.  Statistically, the average North American omnivore is more nutritionally deficient than the average vegan (one study found the average vegan deficient in 3 essential nutrients, the average omnivore deficient in 7 essential nutrients; they were both typically calcium deficient, but they differed on the other nutrients).  And since many people go vegan for ethical and environmental reasons, there isn't a lot of evidence to support the idea it's because vegans are necessarily even more health conscious people, making that result all the more significant.  Hell, the definition of vegan includes not wearing wool, not using leather, etc., so the very word speaks to a lot of things that are nothing to do with what you eat.

The fact that 14 of the top 15 killers in North America (heart disease, diabetes, many cancers, etc.) are related to diet and lifestyle suggests that successful health and vibrancy into old age as an omnivore is what's hard, not being vegan.  I agree with you that simply eating a vegan diet is no guarantee of health (hell, Oreo cookies are vegan).  But the standard American omnivorous diet is almost a guarantee of bad health.

However, if you adopt a plant-based diet focused on whole foods, and you eat the rainbow, it's almost impossible to do it wrong.

Wait a minute, are you telling me that people who eat like shit eating takeaway and McDonald's  etc die of complications related to their shitty diet? I never could've guessed..



There's only 2 races: White and 'Political Agenda'
2 Genders: Male and 'Political Agenda'
2 Hairstyles for female characters: Long and 'Political Agenda'
2 Sexualities: Straight and 'Political Agenda'

Maybe a 7-day vegan challenge will solve all your problems ;)

I think the best way is to do gradual food elimination over the course of several months and then see how you feel. Many people who tried switching to veganism temporarily report feeling less energetic because they seemingly rely on processed food and/or don't make the best decisions of what they should eat. I never thought I could ever live without white bread, but had somehow managed to eliminate 90% of my intake of it by doing it gradually. My salt intake has also decreased tremendously over the course of a few years (still working on that addictive processed sugar, though).

Ultimately, only you can decide whether it is worth or not and in what capacities (for you personally, for the environment or for whatever other reasons). Everyone will give you their personal beliefs on the matter, which are quite subjective. If you want to get to the bottom of this, you would probably be better off pouring yourself into scientific literature on the matter comparing eating habits, lifestyles and health. I find Mike the Vegan YouTube channel to be informative as he always cites peer-reviewed scientific research and appears to be objective enough about what is expected from a plant-based diet (inlcuding having to take in some supplements; which shouldn't be exclusive to such diet, by the way).

I am not vegan myself but I mainly subsist on chicken and fish plus the ocassional red meat once or twice a month. I have days where I don't eat any kind of meat. This works for me now, but I'm always looking into ways to improve my diet.



No foreign sky protected me,
No stranger's wing shielded my face.
I stand as witness to the common lot,
survivor of that time, that place.

- From 'Requiem' by Anna Akhmatova

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VGPolyglot said:

What about breast-feeding? We've been consuming that for far longer than 10,000 years I imagine.

Is this a serious question?



Johnw1104 said:

I'm not a vegetarian but I've found there's quite a lot of alternatives that make it a lot less difficult than I thought it would be, and when you go a long time without eating meat you begin to lose your taste and desire for it.

The truth is, it's a very, very healthy way to go so long as you make sure you're still getting sufficient protein (which can be found in plenty of non-animal sources) and vitamins (perhaps get a metabolic panel after a couple months of it to make sure you're not deficient in anyhting); I don't believe I've ever met a fat committed-vegetarian.

Personally, I've been gradually removing meat from my life but more so because I've been developing feelings of guilt about the animals I eat... I recall one turning point night was when I was at a bar watching basketball and ordered a large plate of wings with a friend who hardly ate any, and looking down at it I realized that something like a minimum of nearly a dozen animals had to die so that we could have something to snack on with our beer. That just felt inherently wrong, but certainly didn't stop me lol

There's certain animals, though, that I've really felt the need to stop eating, first and foremost being pigs. I've just seen far too much evidence on youtube and the like that pigs are essentially dogs, with similar levels of intelligence and emotions to the point that it just seems insanely cruel the way they are kept in pens and then killed. It was painful as hell to say goodbye to prosciutto, pepperoni, and bacon, but it turns out turkey bacon is actually quite good.

At this point the next animal I may have to abandon (but am extremely hesitant to) is the cow... I hope they're not as aware and intelligent as some evidence has begun showing them to be, as damn do I love steak lol

I wish I could say I started my veg-positive journey for reasons as noble as yours (not wanting to participate in animal cruelty).  I started going veg-positive because of the environmental devastation that animal agriculture wreaks on the planet.  The United Nations has assessed the evidence and concluded that animal agriculture is the #1 cause of anthropogenic greenhouse gases (in part because animal agriculture is also the #1 cause of global deforestation, which reduces carbon sequestration).  Activities related to animal agriculture are also the #1 cause of groundwater contamination, the #1 contributor to ocean "dead zones", a huge contributor to soil contamination, and much more.  Put it all together and animal agriculture is the #1 environmental threat on this planet.  Not a bad motivator to want to do something about that then I suppose, but it's more self-interested than animal rights (I have a vested interest in the environment supporting life on this planet, after all!).  I hate to admit it, but animal welfare wasn't enough to make me go more plant-based.

I switched to a plant-based diet for the environment, and now animal welfare issues help keep me there.  So too do all the health benefits of a veg-positive lifestyle, as I've seen significant personal health improvements and I obviously don't want to let those go either.  But I honestly wish I had done it for a more selfless reason, and much earlier.

A quick note about protein.  The only people not getting enough protein are people on severely calorie restricted diets (ballerinas, figure skaters, etc.).  On average, vegans eat twice as much protein as they need and they have blood levels of protein approximately similar to omnivores (slightly higher actually, likely due to vegans typically having better digestion than omnivores).  And most omnivores are already nutrient deficient (7 nutrient deficiencies on average, in one study), so switching to a diet of whole plant foods would actually likely reduce their nutrient deficiencies since whole plant foods have far more nutrients per calorie.



Aeolus451 said:

Oh lordy. I mistyped and put one little ietter into a word that doesn't belong there and all of my points that I made are now debunked. I never mentioned omega 3s in any of my posts....so what are you talking about? 

Supplements are for people who for some reason or another don't get enough of something in their diet. Normal people who eat a normal balanced diet don't need to take them.  

I was just double-checking what you meant, for all I know you meant to say "gimberish" as it's a slang word from some dialect of English that I'm unfamiliar with.  If you re-read what I typed I approached it with curiosity, despite your misrepresenting it.  And I've been atempting to address all of your points, but you aren't giving me much to go on as you're making assertions that fly in the face of the best scientific evidence, and offer no reason for me to question the science.

Omega 3s are one of the most common and popular supplements, but fair enough I think I was thinking of another commenter when I addressed that.  Thank you for pointing that out.

Supplements are for people who don't get enough of something in their diet.  But the missing piece of that statement is that the easiest way to have nutrient deficiencies is to eat foods with a high caloric density and/or a bad nutrient/calorie ratio.  Those foods are overwhelmingly meat, dairy, eggs, and refined carbohydrates.  And note that last point, I acknowledge that processed carbs (white bread, white sugar, etc.) can be as bad as the meat/dairy/eggs when it comes to health.  If health is the goal, it's about eating whole foods, with a focus on foods with a good nutrient/calorie ratio, and a lack of negatives (such as cholesterol and saturated fat), and making sure to "eat the rainbow".  Foods of different colours tend to be high in different kinds of nutrients, not to mention the phytochemicals that give foods their colours are themselves important for optimal health.  So by eating the rainbow you're diversifying your diet tremendously.  And that's impossible to do well on a diet heavy in meat dairy and eggs (especially since phytonutrients are only found in plant foods).

And then we talk about the gut bacteria/microbiome, which is enhanced by eating fibre (only found in plant foods) and suppressed by eating animal products.  If you recognize the importance of the gut, that instantly ends the discussion of which foods are healthiest.  Fibre rich foods improve your microbiome, and foods of animal origin reduce the diversity of your intestinal bacteria.



VGPolyglot said:

What about breast-feeding? We've been consuming that for far longer than 10,000 years I imagine.

True, my comments were about cow's milk, not human milk.  That actually strengthens the argument against dairy.  The nutritional differences of human breast milk and dairy are significant.

"Milk from cows and goats is quite different in composition than human breast milk and, therefore, should not be fed to human infants. Human milk, which is designed specifically for promoting infant health, is much lower in protein, calcium, and sodium, and higher in mono- and polyunsaturated fats, carbohydrates, folate, and vitamin C."  (source:  http://www.nutritionmd.org/nutrition_tips/nutrition_tips_infant_nutrition/breastfeeding_milks.html)

And of course, cows wean themselves off cows milk, so the idea that we should be consuming the milk of another mammal, and doing so as adults, is silly and not health promoting.



scrapking said:
VGPolyglot said:

What about breast-feeding? We've been consuming that for far longer than 10,000 years I imagine.

True, my comments were about cow's milk, not human milk.  That actually strengthens the argument against dairy.  The nutritional differences of human breast milk and dairy are significant.

"Milk from cows and goats is quite different in composition than human breast milk and, therefore, should not be fed to human infants. Human milk, which is designed specifically for promoting infant health, is much lower in protein, calcium, and sodium, and higher in mono- and polyunsaturated fats, carbohydrates, folate, and vitamin C."  (source:  http://www.nutritionmd.org/nutrition_tips/nutrition_tips_infant_nutrition/breastfeeding_milks.html)

And of course, cows wean themselves off cows milk, so the idea that we should be consuming the milk of another mammal, and doing so as adults, is silly and not health promoting.

I'll continue to eat dairy myself.