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Forums - General Discussion - Is becoming a vegetarian/vegan worth it?

scrapking said:
curl-6 said:

No offense, but I find it extremely hard to believe that you don't own or consume anything at all in which production involves the harming of animals. Even a vegan diet involves crops and pest control. The computer or phone you are using now probably has some plastic or adhesive derived from an animal.

Personally, I'm okay with animals being killed to support my way of life. It may be politically incorrect to say so, but I don't place an enormous amount of value on the life of a cow or a chicken.

Re-read my quote.  Nowhere do I say that I don't own or consume anything at all in which the production involved the harming of animals.  I have many things I've owned since before I was particularly concerned with this topic, and have possibly unknowingly purchased some since.  I'm not trying to say I'm perfect, as I ain't perfect.  I'm so imperfect, I just typed "ain't"!  ;)  I do strive to be constantly better.  And by better, I mean working to bringing my actions more in alignment with my beliefs.  So it's not about me making myself better than someone else, it's about making myself better according to my own standards.  I respect the fact that others have other standards.  As such I've almost entirely kept ethics out of this discussion, as it's not for me to tell people what to believe.  I have kept my comments almost entirely to correcting (what I believe to be) misinformation.  If people are to make informed decisions, they need the correct info.

Fair enough. Kudos to you for not pushing an ethical debate on people, that's a position I can respect.



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invetedlotus123 said:

Most of my material is in portuguese, but I`ve found this article in English. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3176558/It-s-healthier-cook-LARD-sunflower-oil-Extraordinary-experiment-shows-ve-told-cooking-oils-wrong.html  The reason why pig fat, or lard, is better than most vegetal oils is because it has no added conservatives and vegetal oil has to go through severe modificantios to arrive the supermarket. And is possible to be very heatlhy on a meat based diet, Atkins diet proved wrong this idea that fat and red meat are necessarily unhealthy. And our body NEEDS fat, a friend of the family that is a gynecologist explained us that many women are having hormonal problems for not eating enough fat. An eating lifestyle i like a lot is Paleo Low-Carb. And whole plant-based diet can be very healthy or not, it all comes for how much you reasearch and applies in your eating habits, just like any diet. The thing is most vegetarians tend to know a lot more and do a lot more research about nutrition than meat lovers, so we tend to believe the vegetarian lifestyle in itself is healthier than eating meat, when it`s not quite the case. I eat a lot of egg yolks, meat, cook with lard and etc, and I`m actually really healthy according to my exams.

Given Dr. Atkins appears to have died of heart disease, I don't see that as a ringing endorsement of the Atkins diet.

Cooking with lard might be better than sunflower oil in some circumstances, but my understanding is it's better to not cook with oils.  I haven't cooked with any oil in decades.

Your body may or may not need fat, I think the jury is still out on that.  But I do choose to eat raw coconut, which contains (what I believe to be) far healthier fat than any animal product.

I believe the problems with eating animal products are largely long-term problems.  If you eat meat in moderation, or if you're fit and active, you can reduce and/or delay many of the problems associated with eating meat and other animal products.  Being active should reduce the risks of diabetes for sure, but many of the other diseases could still catch up with you (which could reduce the length, and the quality, of your later years).  A fit and active person eating a lot of meat might actually have heightened risk of some of the neurological problems associated with an omnivorous diet, as they'd be eating more of the cholesterol and plaque that are being fingered for the neurological problems.



I think it can be good for some people for sure, and can definitely improve your health, but you really need to not be picky for it and know what to eat to replace the nutrients in meat that you will be lacking. You'll also not be able to experience the taste of it too, which for a lot would be very difficult.

Another thing is how some people view eating meat, and it's interesting to think if a mindset like that is or should be enough to deprive you of something that is crucial in your diet.



 

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hershel_layton said:

[...]If being a vegetarian improves my life, I'll probably do over a course of one month. Won't be young forever, so it's smart for me to plan for the future.

I just realized that I had replied to a lot of people, but not to the OP.  So here's a reply, OP!  :)

I won't re-iterate all the info you've already been given, but one thing that hasn't been touched on yet is antibiotics.  Over 80% (87% is the specific estimate I most recently heard) of all the antibiotics produced are now going to food animals.  That creates a huge problem: antibiotic resistance.  You know how they say that you should use up all the antibiotics you have, and not stop immediately after symptoms disappear?  Well, by eating factory farmed meat you're doing much the same thing.  Humanity has chosen to keep gigantic amounts of the same type of animals in close quarters, which spreads disease.  In the wild animals are spread out which avoids this problem.  To keep the disease in check, they give factory farmed animals (which is over 90% of all meat in general, and 99.6% of all chicken) tonnes of antibiotics.  Trace quantities of the antibiotics remain in the meat, and then humans eat them.  Flora in humans can develop resistance to these antiobiotics from humans eating meat, so if you later get sick that antibiotic may be less effective at making you well.  Being a vegetarian won't save you from this as trace amounts of antibiotics (and trace amounts are the worst kinds) can make their way into dairy.  There are multiple reasons why antibiotics are becoming less effective, but people eating animal products is the most widespread contributing factor.



b00moscone said:
I think it can be good for some people for sure, and can definitely improve your health, but you really need to not be picky for it and know what to eat to replace the nutrients in meat that you will be lacking. You'll also not be able to experience the taste of it too, which for a lot would be very difficult.

Another thing is how some people view eating meat, and it's interesting to think if a mindset like that is or should be enough to deprive you of something that is crucial in your diet.

I have a reputation of being a picky eater.  I was an omnivore until I was about 40.  At that point I became a vegetarian.  It was a revelation!  It forced me out of my habits of always eating the same things, especially at restaurants.  I tried many things that I wouldn't have even considered before.  I was blown away how many of them I enjoyed, and I discovered flavours and textures that were unknown to me.  Plant-based foods that I would have eaten the crap out of as an omnivore if only I'd known about them!

After being a vegetarian for about three years, I finally went vegan.  Guess what, it happened again.  I again discovered amazing textures and flavours that were previously unknown to me.  Things I would have happily eaten as a vegetarian, or an omnivore, if only I'd known how awesome they are.

So what you say may be true, but if you have a spirit of exploration and a desire for discovery then you might have a very different experience.  Even if you're a so-called "picky" eater like me!  :)

Replacing the nutrients from meat is largely overblown, especially when it comes to protein (a nutrient that most people get too much of).  If you simply remove meat from your diet you might find yourself deficient in something, sure, but generally when you become vegetarian, or especially when you become vegan, you'll probably be adding new things to your diet.  And plants typically have a broader array of nutrients than meat.  Ultimately, whatever your diet, you need a broad array of nutrients, and there are a great many nutrient-deficient omnivores.  Ironically, a higher percentage of omnivores are now vitamin B12 deficient than are vegans.  And, statistically, very few non-vegans get enough fibre in their diets.

I'm curious about your final sentence, the one about how some people view eating meat.  I'm not sure I followed it, exactly.  What is crucial in your diet?  Certainly not meat, and you don't appear to suggest so in the rest of your message.  Could you elaborate?



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scrapking said:
b00moscone said:
I think it can be good for some people for sure, and can definitely improve your health, but you really need to not be picky for it and know what to eat to replace the nutrients in meat that you will be lacking. You'll also not be able to experience the taste of it too, which for a lot would be very difficult.

Another thing is how some people view eating meat, and it's interesting to think if a mindset like that is or should be enough to deprive you of something that is crucial in your diet.

I have a reputation of being a picky eater.  I was an omnivore until I was about 40.  At that point I became a vegetarian.  It was a revelation!  It forced me out of my habits of always eating the same things, especially at restaurants.  I tried many things that I wouldn't have even considered before.  I was blown away how many of them I enjoyed, and I discovered flavours and textures that were unknown to me.  Plant-based foods that I would have eaten the crap out of as an omnivore if only I'd known about them!

After being a vegetarian for about three years, I finally went vegan.  Guess what, it happened again.  I again discovered amazing textures and flavours that were previously unknown to me.  Things I would have happily eaten as a vegetarian, or an omnivore, if only I'd known how awesome they are.

So what you say may be true, but if you have a spirit of exploration and a desire for discovery then you might have a very different experience.  Even if you're a so-called "picky" eater like me!  :)

Replacing the nutrients from meat is largely overblown, especially when it comes to protein (a nutrient that most people get too much of).  If you simply remove meat from your diet you might find yourself deficient in something, sure, but generally when you become vegetarian, or especially when you become vegan, you'll probably be adding new things to your diet.  And plants typically have a broader array of nutrients than meat.  Ultimately, whatever your diet, you need a broad array of nutrients, and there are a great many nutrient-deficient omnivores.  Ironically, a higher percentage of omnivores are now vitamin B12 deficient than are vegans.  And, statistically, very few non-vegans get enough fibre in their diets.

I'm curious about your final sentence, the one about how some people view eating meat.  I'm not sure I followed it, exactly.  What is crucial in your diet?  Certainly not meat, and you don't appear to suggest so in the rest of your message.  Could you elaborate?

That's definitely a very interesting story, and one i'm glad you shared with me! I would say i'm likely more picky than others, though I do still eat some foods that others may not want to, likely due to my parents being from different countries and therefore introducting me to different dishes etc. From that, it's definitely clear that focusing your diet more on certain foods does introduce you to other new flavours and such, and is something I never really realized until now.

As for meat, it is definitely proven to be fairly important. It allows for amino acids to be made which are very important for your body to be developed, and a lack of that could lead to fairly serious conditions. However, obviously it is up to the person to simply eat things to make up for it, so it can be due to the stupidity of someone. That being said, I do still think that meat is probably the easiest way to attain them, and does have other benefits such as muscle-building and a good source of energy.

As for my last comment, I was sort of refering to people's reaction to things like animal cruelty and such, or even other things. For example, my mum grew up on a farm, and can't eat lamb because she always pictures the lambs she had on that farm. Things like that are evidently a lot of the reason why people go vegetarian, however because of that it's not to experience new tastes and flavours, but only to get away from meat, and as a result forget the nutrients that come with it and possibly not make up for it. From that I question if going vegetarian in that aspect is worth it, as in that case it can be more of a detriment to your health than anything.



 

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Meat has certain kinds of protein that are necessary for a healthy lifestyle.

Certain B vitamins are obtainable through only two means: Meat (or vitamins derived from it), and dirt. Pretty sure we're not here to talk about how awesome eating dirt is, and I would rather wash my fruits and vegetables.

Vegans are actively contributing to the extinction of Honey Bees, a species that would be gone were it not for turning them into livestock for honey. If everyone is vegan (like 99% of all vegans want to happen), honey farms go out of business and natural selection would see the Honey Bee go extinct (not to mention cows, pigs and chickens would probably be fine). All that aside, honey is actually really good for you, whereas agave is just as bad as a spoonful of sugar.

Being vegan is harder than most think, for example: Congratulations, if you're vegan then you can no longer have Big Red (soda), or nearly any food that is unnaturally red in color. Why? Because Red 40 food dye is made of beetles, yo.

Overall, humans shouldn't be vegan, but they shouldn't be as they are now, either. Primal man lived on a diet consisting of more than 90% nuts and berries, with 6~% fruits and veggies and the remainder being meat. On average, man would consume meat once every two or three weeks (and it would be all that was eaten that day). However, as man became more aware of how the land worked, they began eating more fruits and vegetables than before, and then finally our diets turned to mush. Or bread, whatever. After man settled and started farms to cultivate wheat, produce, and meat, our diets started to suck, but we at least still worked a lot of it off. It wasn't until the modern age that man's laziness outweighed the caloric intake...

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b00moscone said:

That's definitely a very interesting story, and one i'm glad you shared with me! I would say i'm likely more picky than others, though I do still eat some foods that others may not want to, likely due to my parents being from different countries and therefore introducting me to different dishes etc. From that, it's definitely clear that focusing your diet more on certain foods does introduce you to other new flavours and such, and is something I never really realized until now.

As for meat, it is definitely proven to be fairly important. It allows for amino acids to be made which are very important for your body to be developed, and a lack of that could lead to fairly serious conditions. However, obviously it is up to the person to simply eat things to make up for it, so it can be due to the stupidity of someone. That being said, I do still think that meat is probably the easiest way to attain them, and does have other benefits such as muscle-building and a good source of energy.

As for my last comment, I was sort of refering to people's reaction to things like animal cruelty and such, or even other things. For example, my mum grew up on a farm, and can't eat lamb because she always pictures the lambs she had on that farm. Things like that are evidently a lot of the reason why people go vegetarian, however because of that it's not to experience new tastes and flavours, but only to get away from meat, and as a result forget the nutrients that come with it and possibly not make up for it. From that I question if going vegetarian in that aspect is worth it, as in that case it can be more of a detriment to your health than anything.

You're lucky to have grown up in a multicultural household and exposed to a wider variety of things.  I grew up in a non-diverse household, eating the typical western diet, going to "family restaurants", etc.  My awakening began in my early '20s when I discovered Japanese, traditional Chinese, Indian, Thai, etc., and continues to this day.  I had roommates and it was either try ethnic food, cook separatey for myself, or starve.  ;)

Meat is not at all necessary, or even really important.  When you say it allows for amino acids to be made, that is partly true, and partly a misunderstanding.  "Protein" isn't a thing, per se.  Proteins are collections of amino acids.  All the same amino acids that are in animal protein are also available in plant protein.  They're no different at all.  We used to believe that eating a "complete protein" was important, which just means that each of the amino acids are present.  Animals products contain complete proteins.  So do many plants, such as buckwheat (my personal fave of the plants that have complete proteins).  If you ate plants that didn't have all the amino acids, they recommended "food combining", meaning eating two or more plant-based foods that together have all the amino acids.  Rice and beans is a classic example of two combined foods that are commonly eaten together that create a complete protein.  The thing is, we now know the body separates the amino acids and can hold on to them for a long time, possibly days, so you have a long window of time to eat something else that will give you the other amino acids you need.  There's also new evidence that always eating a complete protein at every meal is bad, and that periodically eating some meals that are heavy in a small number of amino acids can have a cleansing effect on the body (think of it attaching to and cleaning out the residue of all the other amino acids).

There are some insanely ripped and muscular vegan body builders.  Meat is not necessarily preferrable for muscle growth.  In fact, there is some evidence that switching to plant based diet can actually reduce your recovery time after a workout, and let you work out more frequently.  Keep in mind that the body can only process so much protein, and having too much is a negative as it can interfere with the absorption of other nutrients.

As for a source of energy, nothing is a better source of energy than healthy starches, and vegetables have them in spades.

Ultimately, most peole believe it's really important to eat meat.  And these same people usually can't list any reasons why that are in agreement with a lot of the recent health and nutrition science.

With regard to your last point.  When I ate animal products I had a terribly narrow diet.  if I had kept the same diet, but just axed animal products from it, I would have become terribly unhealthy.  Well, in truth, I *was* terriby unhealthy as an omnivore.  Becoming vegan introduced me to eating seeds, lentils, nut butters, nutritional yeast, and a tonne of other ridiculously healthy things that (in the right combinations) I find absolutely delicious.  Yes, if someone goes vegan for some reason other than health, then I'd recommend looking at the health benefits in guiding the evolution of their diet!



Stefan.De.Machtige said:

I have no plans to try vegan or vegetarian. Meat is just too natural. Your brain itself is even mostly fat.

I'm trying paleo myself for like 80% on week days. 24/7 of it will likely lead to insanity :p.

The brain is mostly fat, but your body can produce the fat it needs.  Ditto cholesterol, you don't need to consume it because the body produces it.  Ditto B12, your body can host the bacteria that make it.

Why would eating the so-called "paleo diet" 24/7 lead to insanity?  I mean, the diet isn't very paleo (fossilized human stool proves as much), but I don't see why it would lead to insanity.  It seems to me that the easiest route to that is eating processed food.  ;)



think-man said:
Nothing is worth never eating meat again.

I've been thinking about your comment ever since I first read it.  I'm curious about why you believe that.

More than anything, I'm struck by how little of our lives we spend eating.  5%?  6%?  Maybe you really savour your food, and it's 85 or 9%?  Even if you value eating meat that strongly, it seems to me a better quality of life for the 90%+ of your time that you're not eating should trump the sub-10% that you are.  Or is there another rationale for your comment?