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Forums - General Discussion - Is free will a myth?

JWeinCom said:
It's really irrelevant. Whether it exists or not, the only logical thing to do is to act as if it does.

Well, not really.

 

It's especially important in punishment for crimes. In many (modern at that) countries today, people are still punished for the sake of punishing the one who comitted the crime. If there is no free will, then there is no rational reason for punishment for punishment's sake, and the only reason to punish criminals is to avoid crimes being comitted in the future, by the person himself, or by others.



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Teeqoz said:

Well, not really.

It's especially important in punishment for crimes. In many (modern at that) countries today, people are still punished for the sake of punishing the one who comitted the crime. If there is no free will, then there is no rational reason for punishment for punishment's sake, and the only reason to punish criminals is to avoid crimes being comitted in the future, by the person himself, or by others.

 

Isn't...punishing the criminal an act of deterrence in almost every case, instead of your punishing because of yes scenario?



Wright said:
Peh said:

No, rationality or irrationality are no laws of physics but what we humans define for certain acts.

An irrational person can still think it acts rational.

 

Then, trying to beat the established law of physics wouldn't be a free will decision, instead of accepting them?

It would still be a result of the laws of physics, it's just that the input led to that being the result of the chemical reactions and electricalt impulses.

 

"rational" and "irrational" does, as Peh said, not have any impact on this.



Well in your sense I think metaphysics delves into that and the hard part is proving or disproving anything since you can't carry out scientific evidence on having a soul or not. Yet when you die, theoretically if all of your cells are brought back to life, you would live again but practically that does not happen and science has a difficulty explaining death so until death is explained I don't think we can truly know free will exists or not. Is the chemical process the causal phenomena or is it caused by something we can't fully comprehend. Are the chemicals just a physical messenger of the body to do the action or are they the ones creating the action directly? I believe in souls so I think free will is there at least in that metaphysical sense but it's not there in a political sense. But that's another discussion altogether



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Wright said:
Peh said:

No, rationality or irrationality are no laws of physics but what we humans define for certain acts.

An irrational person can still think it acts rational.

 

Then, trying to beat the established law of physics wouldn't be a free will decision, instead of accepting them?

I don't really understand where you are going.

You can't beat or break the laws of physics. Meaning, you can't move your pinky finger without willing to do so.



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

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Wright said:
Teeqoz said:

Well, not really.

It's especially important in punishment for crimes. In many (modern at that) countries today, people are still punished for the sake of punishing the one who comitted the crime. If there is no free will, then there is no rational reason for punishment for punishment's sake, and the only reason to punish criminals is to avoid crimes being comitted in the future, by the person himself, or by others.

 

Isn't...punishing the criminal an act of deterrence in almost every case, instead of your punishing because of yes scenario?

Deterrence is often part of the motivation, but like I said, in many modern countries, part of the reason for punishment is the punishment itself, regardless of how preventive it is.



jigokutamago said:
"When all comes to all, our brain transmits signals through chemicals and electrical impulses, and each single action that happens is caused by one or more other actions."

This is true if we assume that our current scope of reality is complete. I think there is evidence to suggest that there must be something supplemental to our current understanding of physical reality. For instance consciousness has yet to be explained solely using our understanding of chemicals and electrical impulses.

Explaining consciousness on a scientific level is really difficult to do. As far as I know, being able to create memories and having a sense of time can be the key elements for having a consciousness.



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

Peh said:

I don't really understand where you are going.

You can't beat or break the laws of physics. Meaning, you can't move your pinky finger without willing to do so.

 

What if you dream of doing so? What if you dream impossible figures or situations? Is dreaming an act of free will or also a result of physics?



Teeqoz said:
Wright said:

 

Isn't...punishing the criminal an act of deterrence in almost every case, instead of your punishing because of yes scenario?

Deterrence is often part of the motivation, but like I said, in many modern countries, part of the reason for punishment is the punishment itself, regardless of how preventive it is.

 

Not sure I agree there. I would argue the punishment reason in both modern and old countries was the deterrence itself. You forbid people of doing certain things because of the punishment; you don't arbitrary chose to punish a behaviour just because.



If you know every single physical constituent of the universe at one moment and all physical laws, you can determine exactly what the universe will look like after any given time. But you can't so it may look like free will exists.