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Forums - Movies & TV - Game of Thrones Battle of the Bastards

Emperorbach said:
LurkerJ said:

It's been revealed to us, multiple times throughout the show, that Ned Stark isn't exactly a good guy. He tries to be but still makes big mistakes.

- Sleeping with a whore when he was married to Catelyn 

- Judging Jamie harshly which gave him the name Kingslayer when all he was trying to do was saving the people of the city

- Brann visions revealed that Ned lied about defeating that strong fighter, when in reality, he cheated to defeat him. Meanwhile, Jamie refused to fight Ned when he was injured in season 1.

- God knows what happened in that tower but I don't expect it to be kind to Ned's past

 

And Robb fucked up hard when he married that girl from Volantos, he literally screwed his supporters for selfish gains.

 

I love this aspect of the Starks storyline, no one stays good in this world and we all do bad stuff. Stop being anal and pretending you're honorable and be cool about it like Jamie.

Jamie is a realist who actually likes being a good guy, but he doesn't dwell too much over it. There are no gods, the world will never be peaceful so why does it matter if I kill a guy or two to escape or win a battle or whatever. Unlike Cersei, who enjoys being a horrible person.

THE STARKS ARE GOOD NOT PERFECT

THeres a difference

Sure. I worded that wrongly, the starks are good people, but they are not perfect.

The pursuit of perfection is full of mistakes, and Jamie knows that, which is why you don't see him making a fuss about his wrong deeds. 

The starks are good people, but like all good people, you can't live as a good person forever. You will make mistakes, and that should remind you that you shouldn't judge people too harshly, which Ned did very often.



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Mummelmann said:
theprof00 said:
@lurker
Ned was never a bad guy. He's a lawful good. He's like the paragon of hero. The whore thing never happened, as we will soon find out.
The Jaime thing, yeah that was fucked up, but wasn't done to purposefully be an asshole. I'm sure we will see what happens this coming episode. Killing a king is something that is simply dishonorable. It's doubly messed up that he basically did the same thing to the sword of the morning. But, it doesn't make him a bad guy. Just makes him stubborn and somewhat of a hypocrite.

And Robb wasn't a bad guy, but he did break an oath.

I believe Jaime was a villain at the beginning of the show. He may not have always been until the kingslayer bit. He's a total asshole, but he's loyal and loves his family a lot (a bit too much wink wink). Over the course of the show we've seen him take a heel-face turn. He's realizing that what he believed in was wrong. He even held an oath to catelyn, and it's pretty apparent he and brienne get along more than well.

Would you consider Jamie to be Chaotic Good? Or perhaps Chaotic Neutral, that's my understanding from my D&D days anyway. But I'm leaning more towards CG, CN characters are borderline and less predictable by nature than CG. Ned was Lawful Good for sure, he was good to a fault, I've played and played with characters who made ridiculous decisions and/or sacrifices due to being LG.

Definitely Chaotic Neutral, with a bit of a slant toward chaotic good. It's hard, because he fits both descriptions really well. I think Jaime is also consistently let down by the social structure that he is supposed to occupy. He was failed by the knights, by the kingdom, etc. He'd rather just be with cersei than anything else, which makes me think chaotic neutral is the right spot, because he's inherently self-serving. Not a villain, nor a hero, I'd say he's somewhat of the anti-hero. 



LurkerJ said:
theprof00 said:
@lurker
Ned was never a bad guy. He's a lawful good. He's like the paragon of hero. The whore thing never happened, as we will soon find out.
The Jaime thing, yeah that was fucked up, but wasn't done to purposefully be an asshole. I'm sure we will see what happens this coming episode. Killing a king is something that is simply dishonorable. It's doubly messed up that he basically did the same thing to the sword of the morning. But, it doesn't make him a bad guy. Just makes him stubborn and somewhat of a hypocrite.

And Robb wasn't a bad guy, but he did break an oath.

I believe Jaime was a villain at the beginning of the show. He may not have always been until the kingslayer bit. He's a total asshole, but he's loyal and loves his family a lot (a bit too much wink wink). Over the course of the show we've seen him take a heel-face turn. He's realizing that what he believed in was wrong. He even held an oath to catelyn, and it's pretty apparent he and brienne get along more than well.

Jamie's good side was shown way before he told Brienne about the origins of the Nickname "kingslayer". 

He refused to fight Ned when he was injured. He argued fiercely with his father over it. He also was very kind to his brother and stood for him against Cersei. 

I think we agree more than we disagree on this, Jamie is a realist who sees life for what it is.

I didn't mean "kingslayer bit" as in, the scene in the show where they talked about his pseudonym. I meant like, back when he was a kingsguard, and killed Aerys, and then, like you said he was judged harshly for it despite being the right thing to do. I think that harsh judgement was what deluded Jaime. I think he was probably a good loyal person before. But it's like, his dream was to be a noble knight, loved by everyone. And he did the right thing. He really did. And society failed him. Instead of thanks, he was scorned. When it's your dream to be a hero, and suddenly youre portrayed as a villain because you didn't follow some stupid 800 year old tradition, what then? I think he decided, "fuck it, I'm your villain then". His ideals kinda went down the drain from there, and all hope lost. It isn't until he starts meeting the starks, and remembering what being a good knight is. 

A lot of people think that he's in love with Brienne because of the way he looks at her. But really, he admires her. She embodies the dream he never fully realized. And she's a woman, she's ugly, she has no character. I think you're right that Jaime always had some knight in him, with the refusal to fight and whatnot, and yeah standing up for Tyrion. Like I said, he definitely has shades of good. But I think it's really when he meets Brienne that he starts to begin making impactful change in his character. 



theprof00 said:
LurkerJ said:

Jamie's good side was shown way before he told Brienne about the origins of the Nickname "kingslayer". 

He refused to fight Ned when he was injured. He argued fiercely with his father over it. He also was very kind to his brother and stood for him against Cersei. 

I think we agree more than we disagree on this, Jamie is a realist who sees life for what it is.

I didn't mean "kingslayer bit" as in, the scene in the show where they talked about his pseudonym. I meant like, back when he was a kingsguard, and killed Aerys, and then, like you said he was judged harshly for it despite being the right thing to do. I think that harsh judgement was what deluded Jaime. I think he was probably a good loyal person before. But it's like, his dream was to be a noble knight, loved by everyone. And he did the right thing. He really did. And society failed him. Instead of thanks, he was scorned. When it's your dream to be a hero, and suddenly youre portrayed as a villain because you didn't follow some stupid 800 year old tradition, what then? I think he decided, "fuck it, I'm your villain then". His ideals kinda went down the drain from there, and all hope lost. It isn't until he starts meeting the starks, and remembering what being a good knight is. 

A lot of people think that he's in love with Brienne because of the way he looks at her. But really, he admires her. She embodies the dream he never fully realized. And she's a woman, she's ugly, she has no character. I think you're right that Jaime always had some knight in him, with the refusal to fight and whatnot, and yeah standing up for Tyrion. Like I said, he definitely has shades of good. But I think it's really when he meets Brienne that he starts to begin making impactful change in his character. 

Excellent analysis. Especially the bit about Brienne being the one he wanted to be.



Ka-pi96 said:

I don't think he's the worst, but he is definitely bad. Especially since he tries to justify his bullshit as well. Religious extremists are a bad lot. Although I don't think death would be quite right for him, the extremist lot seem to like dying for their religion. Better to keep him alive and have him witness the downfall of his religion, that would hurt him much more than any death could.

I can see why you would think other villains in this series are worse but that HS motherfucker represents what I hate the most in this world, so I want to have the pleasure of having this guy that symbolizes religious bullshit to have the worst death imaginable.

Nymeria said:
Liked how violent it was, would have liked Ghost to tear up that battlefield as well. Where is he?

Ghost is away hiding with the important mission of saving up budget in special effect usage.

method114 said:

Writing has gone down a bit this season but I'm really enjoying the way they speed things up. So glad we don't really have to see people traveling somewhere anymore. Was so tired of all the seasons of just watching people move around Westeros. Now it's were going to "XX" and next episode they are there.

Some people complain on characters fast-traveling from place to place and others are happy about cutting off the road trips. xD

Volterra_90 said:

Dorne... interesting? I really have to see that for myself XD. Those women are really annoying. Let's hope that they can improve the Dorne storyline and it begins to be worth my time haha.

I think the biggest problem with recent GoT, including the Sand chicks is that the story is becoming way to summarized and their characters aren't that fleshed out.

Second problem I have with GoT is the constant "coincidences" and people entering scenes on "cue".

But overall, this TV series is top tier material still.



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I adored this episode. But I think ''The Winds of Winter'' is something else. It's magical. It's really great television.