LurkerJ said:
theprof00 said: @lurker Ned was never a bad guy. He's a lawful good. He's like the paragon of hero. The whore thing never happened, as we will soon find out. The Jaime thing, yeah that was fucked up, but wasn't done to purposefully be an asshole. I'm sure we will see what happens this coming episode. Killing a king is something that is simply dishonorable. It's doubly messed up that he basically did the same thing to the sword of the morning. But, it doesn't make him a bad guy. Just makes him stubborn and somewhat of a hypocrite. And Robb wasn't a bad guy, but he did break an oath. I believe Jaime was a villain at the beginning of the show. He may not have always been until the kingslayer bit. He's a total asshole, but he's loyal and loves his family a lot (a bit too much wink wink). Over the course of the show we've seen him take a heel-face turn. He's realizing that what he believed in was wrong. He even held an oath to catelyn, and it's pretty apparent he and brienne get along more than well.
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Jamie's good side was shown way before he told Brienne about the origins of the Nickname "kingslayer".
He refused to fight Ned when he was injured. He argued fiercely with his father over it. He also was very kind to his brother and stood for him against Cersei.
I think we agree more than we disagree on this, Jamie is a realist who sees life for what it is.
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I didn't mean "kingslayer bit" as in, the scene in the show where they talked about his pseudonym. I meant like, back when he was a kingsguard, and killed Aerys, and then, like you said he was judged harshly for it despite being the right thing to do. I think that harsh judgement was what deluded Jaime. I think he was probably a good loyal person before. But it's like, his dream was to be a noble knight, loved by everyone. And he did the right thing. He really did. And society failed him. Instead of thanks, he was scorned. When it's your dream to be a hero, and suddenly youre portrayed as a villain because you didn't follow some stupid 800 year old tradition, what then? I think he decided, "fuck it, I'm your villain then". His ideals kinda went down the drain from there, and all hope lost. It isn't until he starts meeting the starks, and remembering what being a good knight is.
A lot of people think that he's in love with Brienne because of the way he looks at her. But really, he admires her. She embodies the dream he never fully realized. And she's a woman, she's ugly, she has no character. I think you're right that Jaime always had some knight in him, with the refusal to fight and whatnot, and yeah standing up for Tyrion. Like I said, he definitely has shades of good. But I think it's really when he meets Brienne that he starts to begin making impactful change in his character.