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Forums - Sales Discussion - Sony Profit and Sales Data Blow Out! Charts and all!

drkohler on 20 June 2016
finanzen said:

that's not how it works and does not even make sense.
if blu-ray R&D was accounted in part in the gaming segment, that is not "punished" and totally fine

Should ps3 sales that were done for the only purpose of watching blu-ray film also be accounted in the home entertainment segment and not gaming?

I don't think you understand the point. If you look at he financial reports, you'll see things like Corporate "R/D","Expenses","Assets" etc, but you also might see the same/similarly labeled expenses within various divisions/segments. Development of BR was extremely expensive as I mentioned. Somebody has to decide who's going to be hit with those costs. Leaving creative accounting aside, somebody had to decide whether development of BR was a "corporate thing" or a "whatever segment does it thing". Simplified, it is a corporate thing if the managment thinks it benefits the corporation as a whole, it is a "segment thing" if it falls within a segment but is not particularly interesting for the whole corporation. You can see that Son's gaming segment was hit with those costs as it was the _only_ place that saw those huge red numbers appear.

Your last point is downright silly. A game console sale is a game console sale, end of accounting games.



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drkohler on 20 June 2016
ZhugeEX said:

There is so much wrong with this post. 

Especially the part about PC/Laptop write off which is not included in the games segment at all. 

Ther is absolutely nothing wrong with my post. And like me, you have absolutely no idea where the writeoff(s) went but you can speculate, just like me.



Swordmasterman on 20 June 2016
finanzen said:
DanneSandin said:
I wonder how profitable the gaming division is for MS? I would expect that it isn't all that great, hence why they don't disclose the numbers. But I could be totally wrong?

the most profitable parts of the gaming divison are game sales and xbxo live. not hardware

ms gaming divison made ~$7.4 billion  in the last 9 months (july 2015 - march 2016)
sony made $11.6 billion while $5.7 billion accounted for hardware in the same timeframe
only about 50% of sonys gaming revenue is non hardware

for microsoft, that number is bigger (xbox one gets outsold by ps4 about 2:1 so hardware revenue should be in the ~ 3billion range only)

 

MS:
~3 billion hardware
~4.5 other gaming related revenue

Sony:
5.7 billion hardware
5.9 billion other gaming related revenue

 

but ms does not give hard numbers for live, games and hardware as ZhugeEX said. so take this figures as estimates.
the biggest question is operating income, where we don't have any clue. yes live and gaming has way higher margings and profits compared to hardware (to be fair, hardwar has next to none, nevertheless) , but ms marketing and sales expenses are unknown and probably big due to retailer and sales promotions


drkohler said:

The problem is that the data is still heavily "loaded". Take the huge "PS3 losses", for example. The gaming division was very likely "punished with BR costs" that would not necessarily have been associated with that division (the R/D or corporate expenses segments did not show any peaks during those periods). Particularly there were heavy hitters like

 

that's not how it works and does not even make sense.
if blu-ray R&D was accounted in part in the gaming segment, that is not "punished" and totally fine
should ps3 sales that were done for the only purpose of watching blu-ray film also be accounted in the home entertainment segment and not gaming?

what about playstaion vue? part of the gaming segment because it's a network service

It really don't make sense since the Playstation 4 have much more people who pay for subscription than Xbox, the games software sales are the same difference of the hardware sales if not bigger in favor to the PS4, Xbox One is much cheaper than the PS4, Microsoft is making less money from Hardware while Sony is making more.

And we don't know how much Xbox One is selling compared to the PS4.



Swordmasterman on 20 June 2016
ZhugeEX said:
finanzen said:

the most profitable parts of the gaming divison are game sales and xbxo live. not hardware

ms gaming divison made ~$7.4 billion  in the last 9 months (july 2015 - march 2016)
sony made $11.6 billion while $5.7 billion accounted for hardware in the same timeframe
only about 50% of sonys gaming revenue is non hardware

for microsoft, that number is bigger (xbox one gets outsold by ps4 about 2:1 so hardware revenue should be in the ~ 3billion range only

 

Where do you see $7.4 billion out of curiosity?

You have any data of when Sega was  in the console Market ?, would be nice to see how much they lost to quit the console market.



ZhugeEX on 20 June 2016
drkohler said:
ZhugeEX said:

There is so much wrong with this post. 

Especially the part about PC/Laptop write off which is not included in the games segment at all. 

Ther is absolutely nothing wrong with my post. And like me, you have absolutely no idea where the writeoff(s) went but you can speculate, just like me.

Assuming you're talking about the write down during FY2013, then it was clearly stated to be included in the Mobile Products & Communications segment and not the Games segment. 

 

Also, many of the blu-ray and semiconductor related expenses you talk about are accounted for within the electronics segment of Sony and not the Game segment. 

 



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ZhugeEX on 20 June 2016
Swordmasterman said:
ZhugeEX said:

Where do you see $7.4 billion out of curiosity?

You have any data of when Sega was  in the console Market ?, would be nice to see how much they lost to quit the console market.

Not on me but I found this chart. 

 

I didn't make it but assume it's accurate-

 



finanzen on 20 June 2016
ZhugeEX said:
finanzen said:

the most profitable parts of the gaming divison are game sales and xbxo live. not hardware

ms gaming divison made ~$7.4 billion  in the last 9 months (july 2015 - march 2016)
sony made $11.6 billion while $5.7 billion accounted for hardware in the same timeframe
only about 50% of sonys gaming revenue is non hardware

for microsoft, that number is bigger (xbox one gets outsold by ps4 about 2:1 so hardware revenue should be in the ~ 3billion range only

 

Where do you see $7.4 billion out of curiosity?

latest Q10 filling

Nine months ended March 31, 2016 compared with nine months ended March 31, 2015 

•  Gaming revenue increased $284 million or 4% [...]

284/4*104 =7384


but as i said. it's just a (very) rough estimate. the percentage numbers given are rounded. take or add 0.5% and you get 1 billion overall revenue more or less
that is quite a big difference.

 



ZhugeEX on 20 June 2016
finanzen said:
ZhugeEX said:

Where do you see $7.4 billion out of curiosity?

latest Q10 filling

Nine months ended March 31, 2016 compared with nine months ended March 31, 2015 

•  Gaming revenue increased $284 million or 4% [...]

284/4*104 =7384


but as i said. it's just a (very) rough estimate. the percentage numbers given are rounded. take or add 0.5% and you get 1 billion overall revenue more or less
that is quite a big difference.

  

Ah, makes sense. 

 

Yes the rounding was why I didn't bother to look into it too much. 

 

Very hard to get exact numbers for Microsoft still. 



DanneSandin on 20 June 2016
finanzen said:
DanneSandin said:
I wonder how profitable the gaming division is for MS? I would expect that it isn't all that great, hence why they don't disclose the numbers. But I could be totally wrong?

the most profitable parts of the gaming divison are game sales and xbxo live. not hardware

ms gaming divison made ~$7.4 billion  in the last 9 months (july 2015 - march 2016)
sony made $11.6 billion while $5.7 billion accounted for hardware in the same timeframe
only about 50% of sonys gaming revenue is non hardware

for microsoft, that number is bigger (xbox one gets outsold by ps4 about 2:1 so hardware revenue should be in the ~ 3billion range only)

 

MS:
~3 billion hardware
~4.5 other gaming related revenue

Sony:
5.7 billion hardware
5.9 billion other gaming related revenue

 

but ms does not give hard numbers for live, games and hardware as ZhugeEX said. so take this figures as estimates.
the biggest question is operating income, where we don't have any clue. yes live and gaming has way higher margings and profits compared to hardware (to be fair, hardwar has next to none, nevertheless) , but ms marketing and sales expenses are unknown and probably big due to retailer and sales promotions

Yes, I think that XboxLive is what saved MS's gaming division as a whole and is one of the major reasons why MS still bothers with the Xbox brand. They're probably making huge amounts of it, well, pennies really when compared to the rest of MS. I suspect they haven't made much profit from HW at all, with the RROD last gen and the debacle of the launch this gen. XL and SW is what makes MS afloat as a game publisher. It's actually quite interesting how the Big 3 contrasts to each other; Nintendo earns a lot from their HW (usually) and periferies, while MS is earning from SW and Live acounts while Sony... I guess they're a combination of both?



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

finanzen on 20 June 2016
Swordmasterman said:
finanzen said:

the most profitable parts of the gaming divison are game sales and xbxo live. not hardware

ms gaming divison made ~$7.4 billion  in the last 9 months (july 2015 - march 2016)
sony made $11.6 billion while $5.7 billion accounted for hardware in the same timeframe
only about 50% of sonys gaming revenue is non hardware

for microsoft, that number is bigger (xbox one gets outsold by ps4 about 2:1 so hardware revenue should be in the ~ 3billion range only)

 

MS:
~3 billion hardware
~4.5 other gaming related revenue

Sony:
5.7 billion hardware
5.9 billion other gaming related revenue

 

but ms does not give hard numbers for live, games and hardware as ZhugeEX said. so take this figures as estimates.
the biggest question is operating income, where we don't have any clue. yes live and gaming has way higher margings and profits compared to hardware (to be fair, hardwar has next to none, nevertheless) , but ms marketing and sales expenses are unknown and probably big due to retailer and sales promotions


that's not how it works and does not even make sense.
if blu-ray R&D was accounted in part in the gaming segment, that is not "punished" and totally fine
should ps3 sales that were done for the only purpose of watching blu-ray film also be accounted in the home entertainment segment and not gaming?

what about playstaion vue? part of the gaming segment because it's a network service

It really don't make sense since the Playstation 4 have much more people who pay for subscription than Xbox, the games software sales are the same difference of the hardware sales if not bigger in favor to the PS4, Xbox One is much cheaper than the PS4, Microsoft is making less money from Hardware while Sony is making more.

And we don't know how much Xbox One is selling compared to the PS4.

not really.
sony could have 40% of ps4 owners pay for ps+, while ms coud have 60% of xb1 owners pay for gold
any other ratio is also possible of course.

microsoft also has more microtransaction heavy games ala forza, halo, killer insinct, minecraft and age of empires castle siege in contrast to sony.
and microsoft probably has a higher overall (including digital) tie ratio, too. the lower the installbase, the bigger the tie ratio. even last gen ms had a higher tie ratio, while installbase was nearly the same for xb360 and ps3

if the average selling price for xbox one is also lower, the hardware - non hardware revenue gap would have been even bigger than my estimate
yes we don't know how much exactly xbox one is selling compared to the ps4. but i thought the general consens is something about 2:1
and even 1.8:1 or 2.2:1 would not make that much of a difference. i was just giving some rough insight in the ms gaming business and how it is slightly different from sony.

 

drkohler said:
finanzen said:

that's not how it works and does not even make sense.
if blu-ray R&D was accounted in part in the gaming segment, that is not "punished" and totally fine

Should ps3 sales that were done for the only purpose of watching blu-ray film also be accounted in the home entertainment segment and not gaming?

I don't think you understand the point. If you look at he financial reports, you'll see things like Corporate "R/D","Expenses","Assets" etc, but you also might see the same/similarly labeled expenses within various divisions/segments. Development of BR was extremely expensive as I mentioned. Somebody has to decide who's going to be hit with those costs. Leaving creative accounting aside, somebody had to decide whether development of BR was a "corporate thing" or a "whatever segment does it thing". Simplified, it is a corporate thing if the managment thinks it benefits the corporation as a whole, it is a "segment thing" if it falls within a segment but is not particularly interesting for the whole corporation. You can see that Son's gaming segment was hit with those costs as it was the _only_ place that saw those huge red numbers appear.

Your last point is downright silly. A game console sale is a game console sale, end of accounting games.

blu-ray R&D was not that expensive. it was the hardware to produce. and the hardware was inside the ps3 which were sold at a heavy subsidized price unless traditional blu-ray player in the home entertainment segment. 

i don't know why you try to spin sonys financials