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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Prediction: The NX will not be backwards compatible

zorg1000 said:
WolfpackN64 said:

Why? ARM and POWER are more related then ARM and x86.

Because I am a strong believer in the unified platform setup where the handheld and console will share a software library.

So? POWER chips aren't just used in massive servers. NXP makes multi-core, modern, small core POWER chips as well. They could, technically make a mobile and console variant.



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WolfpackN64 said:
zorg1000 said:

Because I am a strong believer in the unified platform setup where the handheld and console will share a software library.

So? POWER chips aren't just used in massive servers. NXP makes multi-core, modern, small core POWER chips as well. They could, technically make a mobile and console variant.

Who cares what they could technically do, im talking about what i think they WILL do.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

As some people seem to believe that they NEED to use Power Architecture for backwards compatibility, let me tell you:

Thats wrong!

Yes, PowerPC would make it easier, as they could pretty much just feed the old code into the system tweak one or two things and it would work, but they would have to use PowerPC which, at this point, is probably the worst choice of them all.
If they use X86, ARM or just anything that isnt PowerPC they would have to use Emulation, just like the Xbox One.
That would mean more work and individual tweaks that may be necessary for single games, but would also add other advantages (apart from not having to use PowerPC): It would be easier to integrate new console features into old games or use the superior specs to improve loadtimes, framerates etc. (Again, see emulation on the Xbox One!) The Wii U cant do this as its simply switching to the Wii chips only and running the old software on those. That means the Wii U Chipset isnt whole anymore, ergo no features can be run as the Wii U more or less ceases to exist, in a manner of speaking. Using an Emulator would mean to just start another software on the Hardware while its still running, just like opening an app on the Wii U doesnt stop you from acessing the home menu, etc.

I hope this explanation cleaned up some possible misunderstandings!

I personally hope and believe that they wont use a PowerPC architecture, but am still hoping for emulation-driven backwards compatibility, though that might only come later in the consoles lifecycle just Virtual Console on Wii or Xbox One BC.



The new guy.

Sorry for possible mistakes, not a native speaker!

MrCkurab said:

As some people seem to believe that they NEED to use Power Architecture for backwards compatibility, let me tell you:

Thats wrong!

Yes, PowerPC would make it easier, as they could pretty much just feed the old code into the system tweak one or two things and it would work, but they would have to use PowerPC which, at this point, is probably the worst choice of them all.
If they use X86, ARM or just anything that isnt PowerPC they would have to use Emulation, just like the Xbox One.
That would mean more work and individual tweaks that may be necessary for single games, but would also add other advantages (apart from not having to use PowerPC): It would be easier to integrate new console features into old games or use the superior specs to improve loadtimes, framerates etc. (Again, see emulation on the Xbox One!) The Wii U cant do this as its simply switching to the Wii chips only and running the old software on those. That means the Wii U Chipset isnt whole anymore, ergo no features can be run as the Wii U more or less ceases to exist, in a manner of speaking. Using an Emulator would mean to just start another software on the Hardware while its still running, just like opening an app on the Wii U doesnt stop you from acessing the home menu, etc.

I hope this explanation cleaned up some possible misunderstandings!

I personally hope and believe that they wont use a PowerPC architecture, but am still hoping for emulation-driven backwards compatibility, though that might only come later in the consoles lifecycle just Virtual Console on Wii or Xbox One BC.

While it's true they don't need a POWER chip for BC. I really want to know what your problem with the POWER architecture is.



While it was once the efficient architecture to go for, thats already long ago (by computer industry standards at least).
The base reason to use it was simply that, yes, it was much harder to optimize and really get all the power out of it, but the power you got out there was quite impressive, as it allowed you to get much more power out of your hardware than the competing architectures. In the older pre-HD days that was an advantage you just couldnt ignore.
But during the last generation and even more today we have games that arent pushing the tech to its limits on a regular basis, we have more power than we need, so why go the extra mile? Not to mention that X86 and ARM have evolved much more when compared to PowerPC, which, basically, is still as complicated to use as 5 to 10 years ago. It just didnt keep up, and likely never will now, as hardly any mainstream hardware uses it anymore.
On the other hand X86 and ARM easier to use and are already in use in a whole lot of hardware, meaning developers know how to work with them. Yes, on a technical level, PowerPC is still the more efficient architecture, but thats pretty much the only thing in favor of using it (Well and BC on NX).
Alone for third parties who are tired of Nintendos difficult to code for hardware a modern architecture would be a godsend. Remember all those games that were announced for Wii U just to be canceled in the years after, often together with degrading comments about how bad the hardware supposedly is? Those people simply didnt see the worth in completly getting into the architecture for one port, because without using the architecture to its full potential the Wii U simply was to weak. Its only because Nintendo knows how to tap into the consoles full potential that it is able to still make Games that graphically can somewhat keep up with the competition, regardless of the much weaker hardware.
Yet, in the end it would be better to give in to the pressure, but a bit more power in the box and get third party support and other advantages of a modern architecture over PowerPC.

tl,dr: nobody uses PowerPC, its peer pressure by the third-party developers!



The new guy.

Sorry for possible mistakes, not a native speaker!

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MrCkurab said:

While it was once the efficient architecture to go for, thats already long ago (by computer industry standards at least).
The base reason to use it was simply that, yes, it was much harder to optimize and really get all the power out of it, but the power you got out there was quite impressive, as it allowed you to get much more power out of your hardware than the competing architectures. In the older pre-HD days that was an advantage you just couldnt ignore.
But during the last generation and even more today we have games that arent pushing the tech to its limits on a regular basis, we have more power than we need, so why go the extra mile? Not to mention that X86 and ARM have evolved much more when compared to PowerPC, which, basically, is still as complicated to use as 5 to 10 years ago. It just didnt keep up, and likely never will now, as hardly any mainstream hardware uses it anymore.
On the other hand X86 and ARM easier to use and are already in use in a whole lot of hardware, meaning developers know how to work with them. Yes, on a technical level, PowerPC is still the more efficient architecture, but thats pretty much the only thing in favor of using it (Well and BC on NX).
Alone for third parties who are tired of Nintendos difficult to code for hardware a modern architecture would be a godsend. Remember all those games that were announced for Wii U just to be canceled in the years after, often together with degrading comments about how bad the hardware supposedly is? Those people simply didnt see the worth in completly getting into the architecture for one port, because without using the architecture to its full potential the Wii U simply was to weak. Its only because Nintendo knows how to tap into the consoles full potential that it is able to still make Games that graphically can somewhat keep up with the competition, regardless of the much weaker hardware.
Yet, in the end it would be better to give in to the pressure, but a bit more power in the box and get third party support and other advantages of a modern architecture over PowerPC.

tl,dr: nobody uses PowerPC, its peer pressure by the third-party developers!

That really makes no sense. I know that's the argument, but it's mainly false.

The last iteration of the PPC architecture was released in 2013 and the next iteration is schedueled for next year. It's still one of the most used architectures in the industry and has massive industrial backing (even by NVIDIA). Many game engine like Unity even allow developers to cross compile the code for PPC, easing development. Furthermore, fat binaries can be used to develop a game for multiple architectures at the same time.

The Wii U used a weak and old PPC core, that was it's main criticism. But POWER is not like trying to program something for CBE (which is prohibitivly difficult).

Personally, I don't think Nintendo would go for another round of POWER chips, but if they managed to get a modern and powerful iteration, it wouldn't be that much of a problem.

Heck, we've seen more problems going from OS to OS then from arch to arch. Even ports from the Windows NT based Xbox One OS to the Windows NT based Windows 10 delivers problems for some games even though many gamers have more powerful PC's.



Ok, didnt know PowerPC is still that much around, learned something new today.
Still, the problem is that all other big platforms (PC, Xbox, PS4) use slight variations of the same X86 architecture. Being the odd one out will obviously lead to problems, even more so if the last console you released was the Wii U.

Worst case: Nintendo uses PowerPC again, Third parties go: nope! Didnt work with Wii U and that came from the Wii, dont even wanna touch this!
Its a very pessimistic approach and hopefully not whats going to happen, but I could see that, at least with some developers.



The new guy.

Sorry for possible mistakes, not a native speaker!

Third parties want easy porting.



MrCkurab said:

Ok, didnt know PowerPC is still that much around, learned something new today.
Still, the problem is that all other big platforms (PC, Xbox, PS4) use slight variations of the same X86 architecture. Being the odd one out will obviously lead to problems, even more so if the last console you released was the Wii U.

Worst case: Nintendo uses PowerPC again, Third parties go: nope! Didnt work with Wii U and that came from the Wii, dont even wanna touch this!
Its a very pessimistic approach and hopefully not whats going to happen, but I could see that, at least with some developers.

IBM is pushing POWER hard and group over a hundred companies in the OpenPOWER consortium, basically opening up the architecture. But IBM is mainly pushing POWER for servers at the moment and they're trying to push back x86 on the server front.

NXP is the only one developping embedded PPC chips, but their development has been quite slow as of late. Even though Nintendo could potentially even get 12 or 24 core processors from them in the same power envelope as the Xbox One and PS4.

But Nintendo has, outside IBM, also a good relation with AMD. And my feeling is they will go with an x86 APU from them.



Nintendo had a quick sweet success with Zelda HD remasters on Wii U so if they're interested in making money they'll forget about BWC and just remaster more games.

Nintendo should know better since they are the original remasters with Super Mario All-Star for SNES.

(At least I think that's the first console remaster...while Street Fighter 2 is the first game to release multiple versions of the same game in the same gen?)