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Clinton has clinched nomination-Also, Clinton or Trump?

Forums - Politics Discussion - Clinton has clinched nomination-Also, Clinton or Trump?

Branko2166 said:
Primethius said:

 

Right, the party filled with racists who are parading an open racist are going to be pressured by minority voters who they have no problem readily dismissing and have done so over the past few elections and this one.

 

Gimme a break. And don't pretend to talk down to me by acting as if minority voters are doing ourselves a disservice. We are voting just fine. For the party thatisn't filled with bigots nor openly hates us.

The reason they may dismiss minorities as you say is because they know that based on historical trends they vote overwhelmingly for the democrats so therefore they don't even bother putting in the effort . As for the democrats what have they done to improve the socio-economic situation of the minority community? Especially when considering the deteriorating race relations in the states.

As for me I'm sorry you feel like I was "talking down" to you as I was merely suggesting the things I did in the hope that you may see alternatives. Although I am white I am in fact a cultural minority in Australia being from Eastern Europe. I had to learn a new language and adapt to a new culture. With regards to voting I don't give my allegience to any party except the one that caters most to my interests at the time of the vote. I am not suggesting that you vote republican necessarily but merely that the party that you vote for should not be a given. Take that as you will and take care.

edit- And if the issue is something you consider a white person being unable to comment on then I suggest having a look at this video.

 

I'm sure you have good intentions but I don't think you understand how racist and filled with hatred the Republican party is. Just look at Trump, who is representing them on the grand stage.

 

As for race relations, when they often break down, it's typically Republican vs minority.



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They are both really bad candidates. Too bad there is no good option.



Torillian said:
Kane1389 said:

Copy and paste from Steven Crowder's website

POLITICO – Bernie Sanders 18 Trillion New Spending

FORBES – The Biggest Military Budgets As Percentage Of GDP

THE BLAZE – Top 20% To Pay Nearly 72% Of Federal Tax Burden

WSJ – Greece Struggles To Get Citizens To Pay Their Taxes

TAX FOUNDATION – What Evidences Taxes And Growth

SALON – Wall Street Journal Bernie Sanders Piece Backfires. Single Payer Health System.

CONSUMERIST – Federal Student Loan Forgiveness Plans Cost Govt Nearly $22B More

MODERN HEALTHCARE – Medicaid Costing More Than Expected

WASHINGTON TIMES – Obamacare Premiums Spikes

SLATE – Healthcare Premiums Skyrocket

HUFFINGTON POST – Canada Free Healthcare

Fact References

 

 

Furthermore, other countries dont really have ''free'' healthcare, college etc etc... Money has to go from somewhere, and it comes from insanely high taxes that the citizens pay for their entire lives. So you get 5 years of ''free college'' and then you spend the rest of your life giving half of your earnings away so that the others can have 4 years of 'free education''. Here is a good video on it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdYOjUqlcFA

Also, the reason many other coutries have ''free'' healthcare, college etc is because they spend almost virtually nothing on their defence. And the reason they do that is because they dont feel the need to, because the big bad imperialistic USA will cover their expenses and aid them, so that many ''liberal democrat'' western european countries can pretend to be the good pacifist, peaceful guys. In fact, I think I read somwhere that only 2 NATO members outside US (Poland and UK) pay their epected share on the military allience.

I'm not seeing the part that says that decreasing the military spending to zero from 682 billion a year would not pay for free college for all those current attending which comes out to 482 billion a year in tuition and room/board.  Where in all these links does it show that decreasing military spending to zero would not pay for free college as you claimed?

Let's ignore the part about how other countries can afford it.  Tell me how your statement makes sense from a standpoint of basic math.

Did I say just college only? I meant ''the free healthcare, expanded social security and 15$ minimum wage together with free college. Here's another video if dont want to look up all the sources i provided. Also, paying everyone's higher education now is not the same as having it be ''free'' for everyone forever thru taxes and cuts

https://youtu.be/e-8spGrLrUM?t=4m6s



Branko2166 said:
Final-Fan said:

Three quick points. 
1.  If Bernie had more delegates and/or more popular vote I am pretty sure the superdelegates would back him; he does not have either, so they won't.  Even if you disagree about what they would do if Bernie was ahead with the people, the fact remains that he isn't and won't be by the time of the convention, so I wouldn't say they made the result undemocratic in this case (or historically). 

2.  Having as President a man who is trying as hard as possible to be a dictator is bad even if he is doomed to fail; I reject your argument on this ground. 

3.  Saying what's on your mind is in and of itself a good thing but when what's on your mind is horrible that doesn't make a good potential President. 

"I would bring back waterboarding, and I’d bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding." - Donald Trump

I agree somewhat with your first counterpoint. Hillary did win the popular vote in hindsight. However unless I'm mistaken the superdelegates had opted for Hillary pretty much from the start.

Your second point is unsubstantiated. You have made an absolute statement without providing evidence. From the empirical evidence I can see that Trump is partaking in a democratic political process and has defeated the establishment candidates in spite of the republican party's resistance. Unlike the democrats however, they did not have the added buffer of superdelegates. I get that you are opposed to Trump but you cannot simply dismiss the democratic expression of voters that voted for him just because you do not like the guy. As of yet nothing he has done can be said to support the notion that he is attempting to become a dictator.

Your third point is purely subjective. Trump has indeed made a number of silly statements but has pretty much reigned most of that in since it became apparent that he was the frontrunner on the Republican side. Once you get beyond the rhetoric though I think that a lot of what he talks about does have merit.

A quick review - "Let's make America great again" - It seems evident that America has allowed its industry to become outsourced and is teetering economically due to its crushing debt. Socially it has been a long time since the country has been so polarised. Therefore I agree with the premise of the  statement.

4.  "I will build a great wall" - I don't think anyone took this quote seriously. A logical argument can be made that he is simply talking about strengthening border controls which appear unable to cope with the massive illegal flow of migrants from Mexico.

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending they're not sending the best" - While this may come across as offensive he is essentially right in the sense that those that cross the border illegally aren't exactly the best that Mexico has to offer as they were unable to immigrate legally. That can be the result of a number of reasons including insufficient qualifications or indeed a criminal record.

I will leave it at that for now but we can see that although what Trump says is often colourful and very much politically incorrect, what he says is often backed up by the facts on the ground.

1.  Right, the superdelegates have been more or less backing Hillary from the start, and it's probable that politically speaking the fact that they were perceived to be in Hillary's camp made it tougher for Bernie Sanders to gain momentum.  But at the end of the day they are going to vote for the one with the most popular support and I am confident that would have been the case even if Bernie was that one.  I don't think we have a major disagreement on this. 

2.  I am not completely sure we are on the same page here.  My intention was to make a counterargument to a specific argument that it seemed to me that you were making. 
You said, "The insinuation that Trump can somehow kick out millions of people if he becomes president is ludicrous hyperbole as the US system contains within it substantial checks and balances which in turn makes it virtually impossible to act like a dictator."
That sounded to me like you were saying, Even if he wanted to try to do dictator-like things, it wouldn't matter because the system of checks and balances would stop him.  And so I responded, If that was the case, it wouldn't be OK that he is the kind of President who would try to do that just because he is doomed to fail.  ("Having as President a man who is trying as hard as possible to be a dictator is bad even if he is doomed to fail; I reject your argument on this ground.")  So this isn't actually intended to get into whether he would actually try to be a dictator; rather I am rejecting the argument that it doesn't matter whether he would try to do be a dictator because the system would stop him. 

2b.  I don't know why you would claim that I was saying anything about Trump seizing the Republican nomination undemocratically.  That has nothing to do with what actions he may or may not take once in office, or after getting the nomination (before the election) for that matter.  Where did you even get this idea? 

3.  I don't accept the excuse, "Oh when he was all in favor of torture that was just crazy talk and we shouldn't worry about it."  He said, "I would bring back waterboarding, and I’d bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding."  In relation to the Brussels attack, when Wolf Blitzer asked how long Trump would like to try non-torture options for interrogation before turning to torture considering that Belgian authorities said the one they had in custody was talking, Trump's response was, "he may be talking, but he'll talk a lot faster with the torture."  I don't normally consider myself a one-issue candidate, but fuck that.  And if he didn't really mean it?  Then fuck that, too.  There's a lot of bullshit in politics, but there are actually a couple of lines left to not cross. 

4.  He has made repeated specific comments about building the wall, that it will be many feet high, that it will cost billions of dollars, etc.  He may go back and forth on the specifics, and I don't think anyone really believes that the wall literally "just got ten feet higher" when he retorts to Mexico's denials that they will pay for it, but if you're claiming Trump never intended for the wall to be taken as a literal physical proposed wall then I think you're going to have a hard time explaining what he said back in February: 

"And of the 2,000 [miles], we don't need 2,000, we need 1,000 because we have natural barriers, et cetera, et cetera, and I'm taking it price per square foot and a price per square, you know, per mile, and it's a very simple calculation. I'm talking about precasts going up probably 35 to 40 feet up in the air. That's high; that's a real wall. It will actually look good. It'll look, you know, as good as a wall is going to look."
random website source

That doesn't sound very metaphorical to me.  Maybe he doesn't stand by his plan anymore, but he did propose to build a literal physical wall and he stood by the basic idea of that plan for a long time.  I don't know what the most recent proof is, but I don't know of any proof that he now considers it a metaphor either. 



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Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Donald Trump is the legendary American success story. Trump started from a humble beginning and he has worked hard to achieve great success in his life. America was built on the foundation of hard work. Trump will work hard as President to strengthen American economy. Trump is a proven stong business leader and he is the best candidate to lead America as President. 

Not sure if you are kidding or serious.

Trump came from money, and has maintained that.  He would have done just as well to put the million(s) he inherited and that 'load' from daddy in the US Stock market and would have done just as well.

So he is a best a completely average businessperson.  Now if you add in his 4 bankrupties and all the failed casinos (seriously, how does a Casino fail?) not sure how he would rate.

He is an interesting mogul, but let’s not invent things that he is not.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

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teamsilent13 said:

Since someone is bringing up Gary Johnson, do supporters realize that he did not even get 50% of the libetarian vote. I remember people saying how candidates getting less than half the popular vote should not be president. Seems hipocritical since I think Gary Johnson only got 30 something % of the libertarian vote.

I don't think anyone advocates that you have to at least 50% of the popular vote to be president; if that was the case, we wouldn't have had a winning candidate in the 2000 election, where 48.4% was the highest percentage reached. I'm assuming you're referring to people who argue that a popular vote should be in place over the electoral college, but they advocate for a plurality, not a majority. In a plurality, you simply have to be the candidate with the most votes.

O/T: I'm considering supporting Johnson, but I'm going to have a hard time doing so in good conscience if those stories about him trashing Petersen's pistol are true.



Trump is going to hammer home his political message. The Orlando massacre proves that Trump is right in regards to his hardline approach to Islam migration. A vote for Trump ensures strong leadership and Islam immigration stops now.



Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Trump is going to hammer home his political message. The Orlando massacre proves that Trump is right in regards to his hardline approach to Islam migration. A vote for Trump ensures strong leadership and Islam immigration stops now.

The killer was a natural born American citizen.  "Now" isn't soon enough.  Does Trump's immigration reform include time travel? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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I guess this election shows anything.. That you can be the president if you have enough money.

Literally Donald Trump is running on his own dime. Hillary is also running on superpac monies. Hillary has nothing to offer. She will say anything to get elected. She flips on subjects more than any of the politicians. Actually, her views are more in line with a moderate republican the progressive democrat. It wasn't until Sanders push the left agenda into the media and voter's voices that she became a progressive democrat.

Do I really need to comment on Trump? He is running on a broken republican party. They cannot even hold themselves together.

Next, the democrat party is going to end up like the republican party. The tea party movement didn't start until there was enough of a mob to do so. Which killed the republicans. The same thing is going to happen to the democratic party. There is enough Bernie Sander supporters to break the party down into its own segregation. A very easy example to see is the fact that Debbie Wasserman will probably lose her elected position to Tim Canova. As more and more elected democrats get replaced from the "Clinton machine" to the "Bernie spin off show" the party will fall. People really should study history.

I wish America could treat this like a relationship. Take a few years off from finding a president to find themselves.....



Zappykins said:
Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Donald Trump is the legendary American success story. Trump started from a humble beginning and he has worked hard to achieve great success in his life. America was built on the foundation of hard work. Trump will work hard as President to strengthen American economy. Trump is a proven stong business leader and he is the best candidate to lead America as President. 

Not sure if you are kidding or serious.

Trump came from money, and has maintained that.  He would have done just as well to put the million(s) he inherited and that 'load' from daddy in the US Stock market and would have done just as well.

So he is a best a completely average businessperson.  Now if you add in his 4 bankrupties and all the failed casinos (seriously, how does a Casino fail?) not sure how he would rate.

He is an interesting mogul, but let’s not invent things that he is not.

 

Uh...4 out of his 500+ owned brands and companies filled for chapter 11 bankrupcy. What about other hundreds of things he owns? And I didnt know ''an averige buisness person'' can have a net worth of over 4 billion dollars.