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EU referendum -UK users

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Leave or remain

Leave 412 53.72%
 
Remain 355 46.28%
 
Total:767
The Fury said:
MikeRox said:

See my response post. We can't make trade deals with any country. It has to be done by the whole EU for the whole EU.

We can TRADE with countries the EU doesn't have deals with, but if we wanted to amend terms in a way which we and that country think would be beneficial, we can't.

So we can make trade deals with countries EU doesn't have trade deals with yet can't make trade deals the EU has deals with. But if we already have a deal with a country in the EU setup why would we then setup a separate deal outside the EU setup with the same country? Undercutting the EUs deal in some way to gain some kind of advantage?

I'll look into this, but I'm pretty certain we can't make these trade deals, because import tariffs apply EU wide. How could the UK decide to lower car import tariffs for Japan or the US? 

 

It would interfere with the EU borders. I.e import with less duty to UK. Then that would bypass the tariff in the rest of the EU. It would be completely unworkable to allow a member state to negotiate it's own deals.

 

Doing trade is different to having trade deals, which are about import tariffs etc.



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

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Scoobes said:
MikeRox said:

2 completely different scenarios. They're actually opposites.

UK house if lords debate laws proposed by the elected body.

EU MEPs debate laws proposed by the unelected commission.

 

Though again. We through the centuries chose our system. We did not choose the EU structure.

Is this really rocket science to people who don't understand why the EU is falling out of favour with EU citizens?

 

I'm really getting sick of remain's blatent lies, when all they do is accuse leave of lying. Newsflash, both sides are lying.

They're opposite, yet still as undemocratic as each other. Not really an argument either way for me which is why I don't understand it. Two systems, both shit. 

And because it's a system that we chose after centuries makes it better? That's terrible reasoning considering we  helped "choose" the EU structure as much as we chose the current British system. I suppose Saudi Arabia having "chosen" its ruling monarchy means its better than these upstart democracies that keep cropping up?

And yes, both sides are lying and I'm getting fed up of it. 

There are some differences even if you see it as the same thing.

 

The liberal democrats were quite keen on abolishing the lords in 2010.

In a general election we would have the ability to vote in a government that wanted rid of the lords as key manifesto pledge and put it to the people.

You cannot ever have that situation with the EU. And it is worse to have the unelected side dictating the laws. It makes the elected part a rubber stamping exercise.



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

Please UK, for the sake of all the European peoples and the last hope of gaining back our independence, save us all and leave the EU!




Netyaroze said:
StokedUp said:
I choose leave, yes it might be a hard year or 2 to start off with while the country adjusts to being fully independent and fully in control of itself but in the long run this presents an opputunity to really make something great of it. Look at Norway, Finland and Sweden, those countries are not part of the EU but do have a deal to do trade and business with eu countries freely and every year those countries are voted in the top 10 best countries to live in every year.

We have a chance to to take back control and make our own rules for our own people.

 Last I checked Finland had the Euro and Sweden is also in the EU.

 

I think the Uk should decide whatever they want. As a German I think the people should have the right to decide. I personally think for the German Economy which is Export based it would be disastrous to leave and the Euro and the EU had many advantages for us. The UK leaving would give UK products a competitive disadvantage if the UK would lose all their EU trading priviliges and I can see this as an opportunity for the German Economy.   

I'm not sure how you've worked that out. The UK has a trading surplus with the rest of the world but a huge trade deficit with Europe and most of that trade deficit is with Germany. Because of this if Europe slaps on lets say a 10% duty  on UK goods and the UK does the same with European goods the UK will benefit from a far larger amount of duty paid to it because of the trade deficit and most of this extra duty will come from Germany. More german companies than any other nation in Europe rely on exports to the UK. We like German cars. A huge number of German firms would need to downsize and some may even go out of business. 

Also if the value of sterling drops then UK exports become far more competitive and the buying power of the pound makes German cars far more expensive.  A german car now that costs £30,000 could end up being close to £40,000 with a drop in value of sterling and additional duty. 

We will become like Australia where German cars are much rarer as they are uncompetitive with Japanese cars. German exports to the UK could drop significantly.

I honestly don't understand how you think this would be an opportunity for Germany. The German economy will contract badly. It will contract more in Germany than anywhere else in Europe. Lets not forget the huge debt of Europe including the UK. 

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

Europe, the US and many other countries are building up huge debt. It won't be long before Greece, Portugal and Italy need bailing out again and I question whether the Germans will be willing to do that again. Both Germany and France have invested a lot in these countries although I question whether the word invested is really applicable here. It's just a plaster on a gaping wound.

Having a mortgage and a newish car I'm paying for plus being single and financially stretched I will probably vote remain but by doing so I know I'm just delaying the shit hitting the fan so to speak. 

One thing I've learned over the years is the politicians of all countries are some of the most vile corrupt and stupid people there are. The EU project is just another layer of these parasites.



bonzobanana said:
Netyaroze said:

 Last I checked Finland had the Euro and Sweden is also in the EU.

 

I think the Uk should decide whatever they want. As a German I think the people should have the right to decide. I personally think for the German Economy which is Export based it would be disastrous to leave and the Euro and the EU had many advantages for us. The UK leaving would give UK products a competitive disadvantage if the UK would lose all their EU trading priviliges and I can see this as an opportunity for the German Economy.   

I'm not sure how you've worked that out. The UK has a trading surplus with the rest of the world but a huge trade deficit with Europe and most of that trade deficit is with Germany. Because of this if Europe slaps on lets say a 10% duty  on UK goods and the UK does the same with European goods the UK will benefit from a far larger amount of duty paid to it because of the trade deficit and most of this extra duty will come from Germany. More german companies than any other nation in Europe rely on exports to the UK. We like German cars. A huge number of German firms would need to downsize and some may even go out of business. 

Also if the value of sterling drops then UK exports become far more competitive and the buying power of the pound makes German cars far more expensive.  A german car now that costs £30,000 could end up being close to £40,000 with a drop in value of sterling and additional duty. 

We will become like Australia where German cars are much rarer as they are uncompetitive with Japanese cars. German exports to the UK could drop significantly.

I honestly don't understand how you think this would be an opportunity for Germany. The German economy will contract badly. It will contract more in Germany than anywhere else in Europe. Lets not forget the huge debt of Europe including the UK. 

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

Europe, the US and many other countries are building up huge debt. It won't be long before Greece, Portugal and Italy need bailing out again and I question whether the Germans will be willing to do that again. Both Germany and France have invested a lot in these countries although I question whether the word invested is really applicable here. It's just a plaster on a gaping wound.

Having a mortgage and a newish car I'm paying for plus being single and financially stretched I will probably vote remain but by doing so I know I'm just delaying the shit hitting the fan so to speak. 

One thing I've learned over the years is the politicians of all countries are some of the most vile corrupt and stupid people there are. The EU project is just another layer of these parasites.

I'm starting to think this is why the polls are shifting in Brexit's favour now.

Common sense suggests most of their claims are at best a worst case scenario, and at worst outright lies.

Remain have lost the argument and are now resorting to the exact scare tactics I would have expected Brexit to need even last month.

 

George Osborne warning "I do not want Nigel Farage's vision of Britain. It is mean, it is divisive, it is not who we are as a country."

 

He is the worst person to make this argument right now. Given his current wounds on tax credits, disability and less recently the spare room subsidy/bedroom tax.

 

My first thought would be, is he joining Boris in Brexit?



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

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MikeRox said:
bonzobanana said:

I'm not sure how you've worked that out. The UK has a trading surplus with the rest of the world but a huge trade deficit with Europe and most of that trade deficit is with Germany. Because of this if Europe slaps on lets say a 10% duty  on UK goods and the UK does the same with European goods the UK will benefit from a far larger amount of duty paid to it because of the trade deficit and most of this extra duty will come from Germany. More german companies than any other nation in Europe rely on exports to the UK. We like German cars. A huge number of German firms would need to downsize and some may even go out of business. 

Also if the value of sterling drops then UK exports become far more competitive and the buying power of the pound makes German cars far more expensive.  A german car now that costs £30,000 could end up being close to £40,000 with a drop in value of sterling and additional duty. 

We will become like Australia where German cars are much rarer as they are uncompetitive with Japanese cars. German exports to the UK could drop significantly.

I honestly don't understand how you think this would be an opportunity for Germany. The German economy will contract badly. It will contract more in Germany than anywhere else in Europe. Lets not forget the huge debt of Europe including the UK. 

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

Europe, the US and many other countries are building up huge debt. It won't be long before Greece, Portugal and Italy need bailing out again and I question whether the Germans will be willing to do that again. Both Germany and France have invested a lot in these countries although I question whether the word invested is really applicable here. It's just a plaster on a gaping wound.

Having a mortgage and a newish car I'm paying for plus being single and financially stretched I will probably vote remain but by doing so I know I'm just delaying the shit hitting the fan so to speak. 

One thing I've learned over the years is the politicians of all countries are some of the most vile corrupt and stupid people there are. The EU project is just another layer of these parasites.

I'm starting to think this is why the polls are shifting in Brexit's favour now.

Common sense suggests most of their claims are at best a worst case scenario, and at worst outright lies.

Remain have lost the argument and are now resorting to the exact scare tactics I would have expected Brexit to need even last month.

 

George Osborne warning "I do not want Nigel Farage's vision of Britain. It is mean, it is divisive, it is not who we are as a country."

 

He is the worst person to make this argument right now. Given his current wounds on tax credits, disability and less recently the spare room subsidy/bedroom tax.

 

 

My advice to everyone in this is to stop listening to politicians on both sides of the fence and actually go by what the studies and genuine experts are saying. Politicians will always find the most exagerrated claims that support their argument and in many cases are just outright lies. 

This whole referendum has really shown the worst of British politics with both sides stooping to the most shameful of levels. 



MikeRox said:
Scoobes said:

Except only one of these parties actually has a majority in the house of commons and as such they should be the ones to put together a detailed plan. Having a wide group of people with different reasons for Brexit is no excuse for not having something more concrete in place.

All the other groups can't actually do anything without some pretty major alliances across different parties with very different ideologies. 

A bit difficult when half of the cabinet are in favour of remain.

Maybe, but in the case of a Brexit vote they would be the only party capable of forming a majority vote and whipping the rest of the party in-line. Beside, all I want is a coherent plan that isn't just rhetoric spouted at the most opportune time. 

So far, from what i can see, the majority of legal avenues that would have the least negative impact on trade and our economy include:

1. Still contributing to the EU budget (but without a rebate)

2. Still having free movement of people

3. Still have to abide by all the EU regulations

4. Having no say on EU legislation as we do now

The other option would be to only have a small selection of deals so we might not have to sign up to all of 1-3 or fall back to WTO rules, but in both cases we're then having to pay a lot more in trade tarifs and all the economic models suggest we'd economically be a lot worse off. 



Whichever keeps more refugees out us what I'm choosing.



Post Removed - Zekkyou



Darama said:
Whichever keeps more refugees out us what I'm choosing.

Which is neither...