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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Update: Polygon Source Info in OP - Kotaku: Xbox Slim This Year, More Powerful Xbox One In 2017, Future Titles to Release on XB/PC, Iterative boxes from now on

Darc Requiem said:
Goatseye said:

That's a lot of speculations to tackle, be an optimist my friend, it makes you age slower and graceful.

I'm a realist. One only has to look at the poorly optimized games right now to get idea how much worse things will be when developers have multiple target specs. You think QA is bad now. It's only getting worse from here.

I think it will be better.



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Xbox One-Two... The name debacle continues. Four times the power of the Xbox One is not going to happen though, unless the console is well over $1,000US.



The only question I have as a PC gamer is will I have to pay for Live in the future? I'm happy all this stuff is getting opened up on Windows 10, put 360 BC on it while you're at it.



Johnw1104 said:
setsunatenshi said:

Just on the point of the frequent updates:

1 new hardware every 3 or 4 years is not much different than the classic 5/6 year turnover model that existed until now. Again, if you chose to upgrade after 6 years that's absolutely fine, at least according to what Sony has planned (based on the rumors) the games will literally be the same across the 2 models of the console. So if you're not concerned about being at the top of the graphical pyramid you'll absolutely be playing the same games, no impact on you as a consumer.

Now the comparison to PC is really flawed, the variance that exists between the 2 skus that would exist (eg PS4/PS4Neo) is orders of magnitude smaller than the amount of different PC configurations you can have. I would probably be willing to bet there are no 2 users on this forum with the absolute same PC at home (including hardware manufacturer for each of the parts), and still as long as you have the required operating system and minimum specs all the games will run.

Consoles won't have custom drivers for compatibility, unlike PCs. The system is unified and every single user should be on the same firmware version at any given point.

I think people who are not very familiar with the PC gaming world are panicking over absolutely nothing. Everyone will still have their plug and play experience without having to wonder if their machine will play whatever game they buy.

 

Regarding the backwards compatibility, I think you might be confusing the hardware iterations to software changes.

Example:

If i bought doom 2 in 1998 and I tried to install it right now to play I would absolutely be able to do so. Obviously all the components I have on my PC are light years ahead of the ones I had in 98, but as long as the operating system that ran that game is installed I'll easily be able to play it again on my current pc.

Now that the consoles are on an X86 architecture it's no more difficult than in a PC. If I'll want to play Bloodborne on my PS10, there is no reason not to have the option to add the PS4 operating system (or retain compatibility with such) on whatever OS they will have at the time. I think both Sony and Microsoft realized this and I can see a really bright future ahead for gamers. I really can see 0 disadvantages as things stand.

Unfortunately our replies to one another always seem to require a short essay lol, I'm getting the impression we have two very different views of the gaming world.

I should also start with the first point about the frequency of upgrades. I suppose just how often it is reasonable to release an upgrade is debatable (I feel 3 years is much too short, for instance, but I'd have no problem with the Wii U lasting 4 as I feel it's run its course), but we both seem to have opinions colored by assumptions, yours optimistic and mine pesimistic.

I find it quite difficult to believe that the games will "run the same" on both systems unless the versions for the new system are rather unimpressive. The truth with console games is that, unlike PC's where development begins by focusing on minimum specs and allowing the higher end to be pushed at the user's discretion based on the capability of their hardware (which often proves unstable), console games have always uniquely been designed with maximizing performance in mind across the uniform hardware. Right off the bat this complicates matters, as they'll either have to maximize for two separate consoles, save on costs and maximize for the new one while sacrificing performance on the old, or save on costs and simply maximize for the original console while neglecting the capabilities of the new one.

That's before we even get into the added labors of different hardware. From what I've read the PS4 Neo will have upgraded memory capabilities. Little more than attempting to migrate code to a system with additional restrictions on memory can often instead require a complete reprogramming of the game (and thus one of many reasons they take a minimum specs approach to PC gaming). I suspect (and hope) this will force developers to initially develop for the original PS4 before porting it up to the Neo, but I have no doubt others will instead design the game with the capabilities of the Neo in mind as opposed to the limitations of the original. 

Essentially, there seem to be two main possiblities here: Sony is right and the two games "will literally be the same" on both systems (thus rendering the whole upgrade rather pointless in my mind), or there will be stark differences between the two. In an ideal world both would run smoothly and, as a PS4 owner who isn't interested in a minor $400 upgrade for games that they claim will hardly differ from what's available, I certainly hope that's true. I am, however, not holding my breath for it to work out that way... I'm just too accustomed to old hardware being neglected by developers.

As for the PC, while it is indeed more difficult to program for it than it is for consoles, that is precisely why they've taken the minimum specs approach for years. The available engines take a great amount of the workload off of the shoulders of the developers, and by focusing on minimum specs and generally being largely concerned with stability for only two OS (Windows and Apple) they've been able to release games that are capable of running on an enormous assortment of computers with relative stability. Truly, if there weren't work-arounds for that issue there'd be no games released for the PC at all given the logic you yourself stated.

Even so, most games require a great deal of patches to achieve any real stability, and the development cycle of PC exclusive games has become rather absurd with time; these days it doesn't seem unreasonable to say a major game intended for the PC takes at least half a decade in most cases, and plenty appear to be stuck in an eternal Alpha or Beta stage of development. As someone who loves Steam, I must say it seems like half of the major games available for sale there are actually still in Beta or Alpha. That's never been acceptable in the console community, and I do wonder how it would be received. The bar for stability and the "plug and play" mentality is very high for consoles, though, and perhaps its biggest selling point next to price, and I really doubt they'd be ok with the amount of crashing and nonsense PC gamers often encounter.

To be frank, I've forgotten why we're even discussing PC's right now (though it's a favorite topic of mine); I never claimed there wasn't more involved in programming for PC's, but the approach to programming for it has always been very different than programming for consoles. My intention for bringing up the PC was merely to point out that it's easier to plan ahead, you can replace individual parts (at this point my computer has become a Thesus's ship paradox, with virtually every part replaced at some point or another), and you can truly try to optimize the experience if you so desire, as having lesser hardware can impact the experience. This seems quite different, where the effect is either negligible or stark, and it's a community that chose consoles precisely because they didn't want to have to spend extra for the high-end experience. It's a very strange middle ground that they appear to be trying to fill here.

As for backwards compatibility, I assure you as a person who has an unavoidable love of old computer games I'm aware that virtually anything can be played so long as it is compatible with your OS, or you're running DosBox etc, though the Windows 95 era is a pain at times. The adoption of x86 is why I've been frustrated with Microsoft for not making what seems like a minimal effort to allow original Xbox games to be played on their new system, but perhaps they think there's not enough of us to be worth the effort (I have a decent library with a no longer working Xbox that's really bugging me).

Of course, the availability of those emulators and compatibility modes on PC's have never been present in consoles, so I do not see them suddenly opening up past libraries spare through the possible use of streaming (that's the only way I see PS3 and Xbox360 ever being playable on the modern consoles, for instance). That seems to be the work-around both have chosen for the moment, anyway. Hopefully going forward 86x continues to make sense for their consoles, as they have dropped it before for their own designs in the past... pressure from developers might make it stick this time, though.

So basically, what I see here are minor upgrades that either serve little purpose or could instead lead to lesser versions of games for the original owners. I suspect it's the former, and we'll see something akin to the first two years of games on the PS4 and Xbox1 that seemed like little more than enhanced ports of PS3 and Xbox360 games as, of course, that's exactly what they were, because it's far too expensive to work in the opposite direction (and thus why developers aren't happy about this development). That's just additional time, money, and manpower for seemingly little benefit.

I'm not sure there's an ideal reuslt here where new owners feel they got their money's worth and old owners don't feel like they're getting a lesser product (and if it becomes regular I'll likely be quite hesitant about early adoption in the future). This could engender some real ill-will, especially if reviews start rolling in with 9's for the new game and 7's for the old. Again, all assumption, but that's what's painting both of our views at this point as we don't know how Sony or Microsoft will behave. Hopefully, at the very least, they keep the promise not to have exclusives for the upgrade.

As a final note, if I had to guess what prompted all this it would be that the original PS4 is simply incapable of handling the Playstation VR very well and they realized they'd need a hardware boost to pull it off. I've really wondered how the base PS4 was intended to achieve worthwhile VR, and the timing of this would really suggest to me the two are intended to work in tandem (not to mention the code names "Morpheus" and "Neo" that more than suggest a connection). While I think there's a great chance games will be fairly well playable on both versions of the PS4, I suspect it's the VR games where we'll see the clear distinction.

no worries, it's a good exchange of ideas so I don't mind the long replies :)

i think you summed it up well, i might be taking the more optimistic approach (still from the starting point the rumors are real, maybe they aren't, who knows) and you're more suspicious of the real turn out.

I think one of the things I'm real bullish about is the fact that Vulkan (with DX12 being pretty much based off Vulkan) will become the de facto API for both PC and console gaming. The coding environment has never been so similar between the 2 worlds and the difficuly in porting is pretty much going to be non existent.

maybe have a read here http://www.howtogeek.com/246366/what-you-need-to-know-about-vulkan-which-promises-faster-games-on-every-platform/

Also something that has me quite confident is the fact Sony has been quite savy and fast to react to/predict consumer expectations. I'm sure they are quite aware of not only the backlash that locking certain games behind the new console, but it's also to their best interest to have an expanded userbase as possible to purchase said games. Let's say person X and Y buy Bloodborne 2, probably the main difference will be the game running at 60fps locked with better AA and lighting on the Neo, but going for 30fps, lower LOD, shadows, etc on the vanilla version. Something that in the PC world is done with a slider here would be locked to the best specs for the newer version :)

on a final note, I agree the main reason for this will be VR, that's where probably we'll have the real resolution difference on games (since the fps should be as high as possible for both the vanilla/neo). I could see the Neo going for the equivalent of 1080p per eye while the vanilla going for 720p.

Time will tell, let's wait and see I say :D



Guitarguy said:
Xbox One-Two... The name debacle continues. Four times the power of the Xbox One is not going to happen though, unless the console is well over $1,000US.

499$ and I think its possible.

That would be around 5.28 teraflops (4 x 1.32).

Thats less than a AMD 380 has.

Newegg has cards like that for 170$, bet you anything MS can get the chip for way cheaper than that.



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Shouldnt Microsoft just move on from X1 and truly deliver a next gen system in 2018? 



So that would it might be a lot more powerfull than PS4 Neo, interesting. Might just keep my PS4, skip PS4N and buy the new Xbox instead.

I hope MS makes their Xbox games cross-buy with PC, that would be a major advantage.



AnthonyW86 said:
So that would it might be a lot more powerfull than PS4 Neo, interesting. Might just keep my PS4, skip PS4N and buy the new Xbox instead.

I hope MS makes their Xbox games cross-buy with PC, that would be a major advantage.

we know neither the TFLOP performance of the PS4 Neo nor the new Xbox, but sure if you're happy with the current ps4 and have no gaming pc to use, then that could be a good decision. i have personally no interest in the xbox ecosystem but for those who do it seems like a great option.

it does make me wonder what the hell is the point of the slim version of the Xbox 1 this year? now that should just be scratched from the face of the planet lol



AnthonyW86 said:
So that would it might be a lot more powerfull than PS4 Neo, interesting. Might just keep my PS4, skip PS4N and buy the new Xbox instead.

I hope MS makes their Xbox games cross-buy with PC, that would be a major advantage.

Well. Got U One. ^^

This spring/summer i wanted to buy a PS4, finally. Then all those PS4 Neo rumours came up and i decided i'll probably wait for Neo. If that doesn't happen i'm pretty sure i'll get a cheaper PS4 at least at the end of the year.



If both Xbox and PS consoles from now on will be backwards compatible through all iterations, then that sounds great. Should save MS and Sony a lot on R&D as well, so they win as well.

Regardless of the specifics, there is too many rumours now to think that this isn't happening