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Forums - Politics Discussion - What happens when Putin is gone?

Scisca said:

EU doesn't mean jack shit. NATO? The protection of the Baltic States is a very sensitive and difficult topic.

Sorry but you don't get it, Russia will never attack a NATO country.



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Scisca said:

EU doesn't mean jack shit. NATO? The protection of the Baltic States is a very sensitive and difficult topic. At least we don't share your sentiment in Poland. USA seems to be thinking differently as well considering they are helping us streghten the choke between Russia and Belarus that we and Lithuania have. We are increasing the spendings on our army and increasing the soldier count... Yeah, we share a totally different opinion on this topic and all this despite the fact that we are in a much, much better position than you are.

Also, they wouldn't have to launch a full scale attack on you. With 27% of the population being Russians, they could repeat "the green men" invasion and take over Latvia and Estonia.

Damn, I heard the Polish were a bit paranoid when if comes to Russia, but still... this is a bit too much.



m0ney said:
Scisca said:

EU doesn't mean jack shit. NATO? The protection of the Baltic States is a very sensitive and difficult topic.

Sorry but you don't get it, Russia will never attack a NATO country.

I think you don't get it, that it's common knowledge that NATO has absolutely no way to defend the Baltic Countries in case of an attack. If Russia attacked you, all NATO could do is impose sanctions. After all, do you even know the wording of art. 5 of the NATO Treaty? It's not as strickt as many believe and by no means does it tell other NATO members to join the war. If you were attacked by Russia, no European country (except for Poland) would give a shit. All they would care about would be securing a steady flow of oil, gas and other resources from the East and to secure their business' in the conquered areas. USA? That would be a bit tougher, they would have to calculate many variables. Is it worth it to start a war with Russia over some tiny countries that were part of Russia less than 25 year ago? What impact would it have for USA in the Pacific? In Korea and Japan? In the Middle East? How much would it cost? Hell, how to even get American troops there!? The Baltic Sea is under Russian control, so what should they do - land in Germany and drive half a continent? Can you imagine that? Helping you would depend solely on the result of a calculation of costs for America - and in my opinion, you'd be sacrificed just like Crimea and Donbas. Hopefully, at least Poland could secure a bit of Lithuania - the part that's historically Polish. Wouldn't want it falling to Russian hands.

Don't forget that Ukraine had American and British guarantees as well. I know these documents had different headlines, but the fact stands. You are at the mercy of Russia, you are the next target on their list and your allies have no means of helping you. I honestly have no idea how you can be this arrogantly confident. Russia does what it wants to do. It has always been this way.

Our legendary President Lech Kaczyński said years ago: "First it's Georgia, after that will come Ukraine, after Ukraine - the Baltics, and after the Baltics, possibly, Poland". And what happened? Russia subdued Georgia. Then it invaded Ukraine. Now everybody is eyeing the Baltics...



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.

Psychotic said:
Scisca said:

EU doesn't mean jack shit. NATO? The protection of the Baltic States is a very sensitive and difficult topic. At least we don't share your sentiment in Poland. USA seems to be thinking differently as well considering they are helping us streghten the choke between Russia and Belarus that we and Lithuania have. We are increasing the spendings on our army and increasing the soldier count... Yeah, we share a totally different opinion on this topic and all this despite the fact that we are in a much, much better position than you are.

Also, they wouldn't have to launch a full scale attack on you. With 27% of the population being Russians, they could repeat "the green men" invasion and take over Latvia and Estonia.

Damn, I heard the Polish were a bit paranoid when if comes to Russia, but still... this is a bit too much.

We are different than you. While we value our independence and sovereignity, you welcome every single invader with arms wide open. Russians come? We love you Mother Russia! Germans come? Herzlich willkommen! We have a very different mentality

Still, we're not paranoid. We have two of our neighbours fighting a war, it's only natural we're gearing up. Moreover, Poland is stepping up and starts to challenge Russia in the region in general. The whole V4 Group cooperation - we are stating to turn our ABC strategy into life. This is our natural role as the second largest nation in the region, we want to be the leaders of Central Europe. We know that in order to be able to truely challenge Russia, we need to have an army that even they have to respect. That's why we're increasing the spendings on army, we plan to increase the number of soldiers by 50% in the upcoming years and we've started training our Civil Guard - a couple hundred thousands of armed people trained in the use of firearms, with knowledge of tactics, knowing how to support the regular army and how to use guerilla tactics. We're also doing our uttmost in trying to get American troops to Poland.

We are gearing up, but then again - we're not living in the safest of times and we'd rather be safe than sorry. Instead of relying on a piece of paper and begging for American help, we want to be able to fend for ourselves. We still need a couple of years to achieve this point, I hope we'll have that time.



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.

Scisca said:
m0ney said:

Sorry but you don't get it, Russia will never attack a NATO country.

I think you don't get it, that it's common knowledge that NATO has absolutely no way to defend the Baltic Countries in case of an attack. If Russia attacked you, all NATO could do is impose sanctions. After all, do you even know the wording of art. 5 of the NATO Treaty? It's not as strickt as many believe and by no means does it tell other NATO members to join the war. If you were attacked by Russia, no European country (except for Poland) would give a shit. All they would care about would be securing a steady flow of oil, gas and other resources from the East and to secure their business' in the conquered areas. USA? That would be a bit tougher, they would have to calculate many variables. Is it worth it to start a war with Russia over some tiny countries that were part of Russia less than 25 year ago? What impact would it have for USA in the Pacific? In Korea and Japan? In the Middle East? How much would it cost? Hell, how to even get American troops there!? The Baltic Sea is under Russian control, so what should they do - land in Germany and drive half a continent? Can you imagine that? Helping you would depend solely on the result of a calculation of costs for America - and in my opinion, you'd be sacrificed just like Crimea and Donbas. Hopefully, at least Poland could secure a bit of Lithuania - the part that's historically Polish. Wouldn't want it falling to Russian hands.

Don't forget that Ukraine had American and British guarantees as well. I know these documents had different headlines, but the fact stands. You are at the mercy of Russia, you are the next target on their list and your allies have no means of helping you. I honestly have no idea how you can be this arrogantly confident. Russia does what it wants to do. It has always been this way.

Our legendary President Lech Kaczyński said years ago: "First it's Georgia, after that will come Ukraine, after Ukraine - the Baltics, and after the Baltics, possibly, Poland". And what happened? Russia subdued Georgia. Then it invaded Ukraine. Now everybody is eyeing the Baltics...

The Baltics invasion is almost 100% not gonna happen if NATO will stop its expansion to the East. Otherwise, maybe



 

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Scisca said:

Hell, how to even get American troops there!? The Baltic Sea is under Russian control, so what should they do - land in Germany and drive half a continent?

We already have American (NATO) troops here for a while and currently a fully functional NATO base is being actively planned in Baltics. Russia is bear. NATO is Optimus Prime. You do the math :)



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derpysquirtle64 said:
Scisca said:

I think you don't get it, that it's common knowledge that NATO has absolutely no way to defend the Baltic Countries in case of an attack. If Russia attacked you, all NATO could do is impose sanctions. After all, do you even know the wording of art. 5 of the NATO Treaty? It's not as strickt as many believe and by no means does it tell other NATO members to join the war. If you were attacked by Russia, no European country (except for Poland) would give a shit. All they would care about would be securing a steady flow of oil, gas and other resources from the East and to secure their business' in the conquered areas. USA? That would be a bit tougher, they would have to calculate many variables. Is it worth it to start a war with Russia over some tiny countries that were part of Russia less than 25 year ago? What impact would it have for USA in the Pacific? In Korea and Japan? In the Middle East? How much would it cost? Hell, how to even get American troops there!? The Baltic Sea is under Russian control, so what should they do - land in Germany and drive half a continent? Can you imagine that? Helping you would depend solely on the result of a calculation of costs for America - and in my opinion, you'd be sacrificed just like Crimea and Donbas. Hopefully, at least Poland could secure a bit of Lithuania - the part that's historically Polish. Wouldn't want it falling to Russian hands.

Don't forget that Ukraine had American and British guarantees as well. I know these documents had different headlines, but the fact stands. You are at the mercy of Russia, you are the next target on their list and your allies have no means of helping you. I honestly have no idea how you can be this arrogantly confident. Russia does what it wants to do. It has always been this way.

Our legendary President Lech Kaczyński said years ago: "First it's Georgia, after that will come Ukraine, after Ukraine - the Baltics, and after the Baltics, possibly, Poland". And what happened? Russia subdued Georgia. Then it invaded Ukraine. Now everybody is eyeing the Baltics...

The Baltics invasion is almost 100% not gonna happen if NATO will stop its expansion to the East. Otherwise, maybe

Yeah. That "maybe" is exactly what I'm talking about. Everything is still on the table. Poland is trying hard to take the invasion on Poland off of it, but the Baltics... I don't envy them

I mean, at this point nobody knows what the borders in Central and Eastern Europe will look like in 20 years. What's Ukraine going to end up like? What happens to Belarus once Lukashenka dies? The Baltics? Russia can just as well fall apart again once Putin dies or they may start a war because of that. Who knows if it's not going to be only Poland and Russia again, like it always used to be? It's anyone's guess, but as usual - the strong will survive.



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.

m0ney said:
Scisca said:

Hell, how to even get American troops there!? The Baltic Sea is under Russian control, so what should they do - land in Germany and drive half a continent?

We already have American (NATO) troops here for a while and currently a fully functional NATO base is being actively planned in Baltics. Russia is bear. NATO is Optimus Prime. You do the math :)

The rotationary troops are better than nothing, but we consider it only a half-measure. A full-time American base is something, but will it really ever be there? That is the question.

Still, basing on our history, we have been taught never to rely on allies. We were a trading chip on other countries' board and America sold us for temporary peace before. If you want to really feel safe, you have to be able secure your safety on your own. I feel that despite being in a much better situation than you are, we feel less confident. Then again, we are trying to challenge the status quo, while you just want to be left alone



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.

Scisca said:
derpysquirtle64 said:

The Baltics invasion is almost 100% not gonna happen if NATO will stop its expansion to the East. Otherwise, maybe

Yeah. That "maybe" is exactly what I'm talking about. Everything is still on the table. Poland is trying hard to take the invasion on Poland off of it, but the Baltics... I don't envy them

I mean, at this point nobody knows what the borders in Central and Eastern Europe will look like in 20 years. What's Ukraine going to end up like? What happens to Belarus once Lukashenka dies? The Baltics? Russia can just as well fall apart again once Putin dies or they may start a war because of that. Who knows if it's not going to be only Poland and Russia again, like it always used to be? It's anyone's guess, but as usual - the strong will survive.

Really that Kaczyński's quote seems to be interesting as well. Because in Russia long ago people predicted about NATO's help in overthrowing the governments in Georgia and Ukraine. The next target is supposed to be Belarus.



 

derpysquirtle64 said:

Really that Kaczyński's quote seems to be interesting as well. Because in Russia long ago people predicted about NATO's help in overthrowing the governments in Georgia and Ukraine. The next target is supposed to be Belarus.

Many thought that the next will be Kazakhstan, but then they took off sanctions against Belarus. So suspicious.

Scisca said:

Don't forget that Ukraine had American and British guarantees as well. I know these documents had different headlines, but the fact stands. 

Ukraine did not declared a war on Russia, or anyone else. It's a civil war. They assigned it as a operation agains terrorists on eastern territories.