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Forums - Movies & TV - So, Civil War is a beautiful mess (spoilers)

My wife thought both were confusing until about mid movie. Then they became enjoyable. Personally, really really loved them both. I was giddy when I left BvS and satisfied when Ieft Civil War. I would have been happier but kept thinking to myself "They're the same movie except one has jokes!"

I think Batman's emotions in the "Why did you say that name!" scene and Iron Man's emotions in the "Did you know?" scene were incredible. Gave me goosebumps.

To quote a YouTube video , it's okay if you liked both, hated both, liked one or the other, or anything in between. That's how I feel. Luckily, I loved both despite similar flaws.



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d21lewis said:
My wife thought both were confusing until about mid movie. Then they became enjoyable. Personally, really really loved them both. I was giddy when I left BvS and satisfied when Ieft Civil War. I would have been happier but kept thinking to myself "They're the same movie except one has jokes!"

I think Batman's emotions in the "Why did you say that name!" scene and Iron Man's emotions in the "Did you know?" scene were incredible. Gave me goosebumps.

To quote a YouTube video , it's okay if you liked both, hated both, liked one or the other, or anything in between. That's how I feel. Luckily, I loved both despite similar flaws.

Both are good films, but I think CW is miles ahead. It's just more grounded and well-made. It's a shame that they rushed a lot in BvS, it really has lots of cool moments! (I still have that Wonder Woman song glued in my mind XD).



Runa216 said:
Lawlight said:

BvS was a breeze to follow compared to this. But the difference in this is that a lot of scenes being jumped to don't matter since there is no context to them. Like of Zemo's planning and doing stuff. But even besides that, holy cow was there a lot of jumping around. Cap was in the US in the Avenger's complex, gets a text message, next he's in London, sees some TV footage, next he's in Vienna and then jumps to Bucharest where he somehow finds Bucky. All the while, Zemo is out and about - Cleveland, Vienna, who knows where else. Tony Stark does some jumping around as well - Massachussets to have a lame excuse of a guilt trip, Vienna, Queens.

How did Zemo convince everyone that it was Winter Soldier who bombed the UN?

You've got some real problems or terrible bias if you think that the pacing and editing of Civil War was bad but Batman v Superman was easy to follow.  As a student of film and television, I can assure you that Civil War was leagues above, ahead, and beyond the terrible editing and pacing of Batman v Superman. In fact, one of the biggest gripes about Batman v Superman was its terrible pacing, editing, and lack of establishing shots, whereas one of the better elements of Civil War was its editing. 

Seriously, this is just more proof that your opinion in this matter is worthless as little more than flame bait or biased nonsense.  At this point it's clear you're just trolling or have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Either way, your words are useless to all except to those who already agree with you and are just desperate to have someone on their side. 

Marvel has some tropes in their movies which is why I may seem prejudiced before seeing an MCU. But if one is good, I'll tell you. For example, I liked The Avengers, I liked Ant-Man, I liked parts of Guardians.

Just recall, from scene to scene where the movie took you. It was very confusing. Just try to recall. My guess is that you've forgotten some scenes since they were pointless within the context of where they were placed in the movie.

Also, you're a student of film, right? Please, in your movies later, don't use shaky cams and quick cuts.



I have some questions, if anyone can help me understand it'll be appreciated:

- How did Zemo frame Winter Soldier?

- How did Cap know where WS was hiding?

- What was Zemo's plan?

- How strong is Cap in this movie? He's stronger than Iron Man and Spider-Man.



Lawlight said:
I have some questions, if anyone can help me understand it'll be appreciated:

- How did Zemo frame Winter Soldier?

- How did Cap know where WS was hiding?

- What was Zemo's plan?

- How strong is Cap in this movie? He's stronger than Iron Man and Spider-Man.

Edit: The person two post below me explained it better. 



 

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Lawlight said:
I have some questions, if anyone can help me understand it'll be appreciated:

- How did Zemo frame Winter Soldier?

- How did Cap know where WS was hiding?

- What was Zemo's plan?

- How strong is Cap in this movie? He's stronger than Iron Man and Spider-Man.

-He used a disguise that approximated Winter Soldier's known appearance in order to be caught on camera in the aftermath of the UN bombing.

-After said bombing and the footage was released to the public on tv Peggy's niece told Cap they received many tips about his whereabouts, most of which were bunk, except for one tip that was credible which she gave to Cap off the record. Cap then goes find Bucky.

-Zemo was knowledgeable of Hydra's affairs and the Winter Soldier's past. He wanted confirmation and the file details of the specific mission of the Winter Solider killing Howard Stark and his wife. He needed to frame Bucky so the international manhunt would lead him to be taken into custody, also knowing Cap would do whatever it took to defend Bucky. Once Bucky was in custody Zemo impersonated the UN psychologist in order to reactivate the Winter Soldier using his activation code and force him to divulge the whereabouts of his aforementioned mission. He planned on using the video (and Cap's foreknowledge of its existence) to tear a rift into the two leading Avengers hoping they would kill each other or fracture the team. His motivations of course was that his family was killed in the crossfire of the climactic battle of Age of Ultron.

-The only instance of Captain America being too powerful in the movie is him stopping the helicopter from flying away. That would require thousands of pounds of force to accomplish so only Hulk should be able to do that (easily). There is no way a 15 year old Spiderman in his first real fight could take on Captain America. He is too inexperienced with his powers and the sheer size difference. Captain could easily defeat Iron Man in a close quarters hand-to-hand fight as he does in the movie. Even Iron Man's computer system sasy so. Add to this that Tony had a broken arm and it was a 2-on-1 fight and there was no way Captain could lose.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1gWECYYOSo

Please Watch/Share this video so it gets shown in Hollywood.

Signalstar said:
Lawlight said:
I have some questions, if anyone can help me understand it'll be appreciated:

- How did Zemo frame Winter Soldier?

- How did Cap know where WS was hiding?

- What was Zemo's plan?

- How strong is Cap in this movie? He's stronger than Iron Man and Spider-Man.

-He used a disguise that approximated Winter Soldier's known appearance in order to be caught on camera in the aftermath of the UN bombing.

-After said bombing and the footage was released to the public on tv Peggy's niece told Cap they received many tips about his whereabouts, most of which were bunk, except for one tip that was credible which she gave to Cap off the record. Cap then goes find Bucky.

-Zemo was knowledgeable of Hydra's affairs and the Winter Soldier's past. He wanted confirmation and the file details of the specific mission of the Winter Solider killing Howard Stark and his wife. He needed to frame Bucky so the international manhunt would lead him to be taken into custody, also knowing Cap would do whatever it took to defend Bucky. Once Bucky was in custody Zemo impersonated the UN psychologist in order to reactivate the Winter Soldier using his activation code and force him to divulge the whereabouts of his aforementioned mission. He planned on using the video (and Cap's foreknowledge of its existence) to tear a rift into the two leading Avengers hoping they would kill each other or fracture the team. His motivations of course was that his family was killed in the crossfire of the climactic battle of Age of Ultron.

-The only instance of Captain America being too powerful in the movie is him stopping the helicopter from flying away. That would require thousands of pounds of force to accomplish so only Hulk should be able to do that (easily). There is no way a 15 year old Spiderman in his first real fight could take on Captain America. He is too inexperienced with his powers and the sheer size difference. Captain could easily defeat Iron Man in a close quarters hand-to-hand fight as he does in the movie. Even Iron Man's computer system sasy so. Add to this that Tony had a broken arm and it was a 2-on-1 fight and there was no way Captain could lose.

1. So, the classic Mission Impossible disguise? Ok, fair enough - it's a comic book movie after all.

2. Not sure how Cap got to Hungary before the joint anti-terrorism task force but ok.

3. Thanks for going into that much detail but I should have been more precise. I know Zemo did but how the hell did he think that that plan would work? Why not just send the footage to Stark when they captured Winter Soldier? Iron Man and Cap was there. He goes through all that trouble on the assumption that all 3 of them would make it to Hydra's secret base in Syberia at the same time?

4. Sorry but no matter the age of Spider-Man, he's stronger, faster, more durable and smarter than Cap. One punch from him and Cap would be out of commission. And Cap is able to fight Iron Man - that says it all. Was Stark pulling his punches? In the end, anyway, it's all good. As if nothing happened, basically.



d21lewis said:
My wife thought both were confusing until about mid movie. Then they became enjoyable. Personally, really really loved them both. I was giddy when I left BvS and satisfied when Ieft Civil War. I would have been happier but kept thinking to myself "They're the same movie except one has jokes!"

I think Batman's emotions in the "Why did you say that name!" scene and Iron Man's emotions in the "Did you know?" scene were incredible. Gave me goosebumps.

To quote a YouTube video , it's okay if you liked both, hated both, liked one or the other, or anything in between. That's how I feel. Luckily, I loved both despite similar flaws.

I respect that answer, you are pretty cool guy d21, also congrats. 



 

Lawlight said:
Signalstar said:

-He used a disguise that approximated Winter Soldier's known appearance in order to be caught on camera in the aftermath of the UN bombing.

-After said bombing and the footage was released to the public on tv Peggy's niece told Cap they received many tips about his whereabouts, most of which were bunk, except for one tip that was credible which she gave to Cap off the record. Cap then goes find Bucky.

-Zemo was knowledgeable of Hydra's affairs and the Winter Soldier's past. He wanted confirmation and the file details of the specific mission of the Winter Solider killing Howard Stark and his wife. He needed to frame Bucky so the international manhunt would lead him to be taken into custody, also knowing Cap would do whatever it took to defend Bucky. Once Bucky was in custody Zemo impersonated the UN psychologist in order to reactivate the Winter Soldier using his activation code and force him to divulge the whereabouts of his aforementioned mission. He planned on using the video (and Cap's foreknowledge of its existence) to tear a rift into the two leading Avengers hoping they would kill each other or fracture the team. His motivations of course was that his family was killed in the crossfire of the climactic battle of Age of Ultron.

-The only instance of Captain America being too powerful in the movie is him stopping the helicopter from flying away. That would require thousands of pounds of force to accomplish so only Hulk should be able to do that (easily). There is no way a 15 year old Spiderman in his first real fight could take on Captain America. He is too inexperienced with his powers and the sheer size difference. Captain could easily defeat Iron Man in a close quarters hand-to-hand fight as he does in the movie. Even Iron Man's computer system sasy so. Add to this that Tony had a broken arm and it was a 2-on-1 fight and there was no way Captain could lose.

1. So, the classic Mission Impossible disguise? Ok, fair enough - it's a comic book movie after all.

2. Not sure how Cap got to Hungary before the joint anti-terrorism task force but ok.

3. Thanks for going into that much detail but I should have been more precise. I know Zemo did but how the hell did he think that that plan would work? Why not just send the footage to Stark when they captured Winter Soldier? Iron Man and Cap was there. He goes through all that trouble on the assumption that all 3 of them would make it to Hydra's secret base in Syberia at the same time?

4. Sorry but no matter the age of Spider-Man, he's stronger, faster, more durable and smarter than Cap. One punch from him and Cap would be out of commission. And Cap is able to fight Iron Man - that says it all. Was Stark pulling his punches? In the end, anyway, it's all good. As if nothing happened, basically.

Zemo did not have the video yet. It was at the base. That's why he has to reactivate Bucky. Bucky assumed he wanted to know where the base was to reactivate the other super soldiers though. Zemo theoretically could have sent the video to Tony at any time after that.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1gWECYYOSo

Please Watch/Share this video so it gets shown in Hollywood.

Lawlight said:
Signalstar said:

-He used a disguise that approximated Winter Soldier's known appearance in order to be caught on camera in the aftermath of the UN bombing.

-After said bombing and the footage was released to the public on tv Peggy's niece told Cap they received many tips about his whereabouts, most of which were bunk, except for one tip that was credible which she gave to Cap off the record. Cap then goes find Bucky.

-Zemo was knowledgeable of Hydra's affairs and the Winter Soldier's past. He wanted confirmation and the file details of the specific mission of the Winter Solider killing Howard Stark and his wife. He needed to frame Bucky so the international manhunt would lead him to be taken into custody, also knowing Cap would do whatever it took to defend Bucky. Once Bucky was in custody Zemo impersonated the UN psychologist in order to reactivate the Winter Soldier using his activation code and force him to divulge the whereabouts of his aforementioned mission. He planned on using the video (and Cap's foreknowledge of its existence) to tear a rift into the two leading Avengers hoping they would kill each other or fracture the team. His motivations of course was that his family was killed in the crossfire of the climactic battle of Age of Ultron.

-The only instance of Captain America being too powerful in the movie is him stopping the helicopter from flying away. That would require thousands of pounds of force to accomplish so only Hulk should be able to do that (easily). There is no way a 15 year old Spiderman in his first real fight could take on Captain America. He is too inexperienced with his powers and the sheer size difference. Captain could easily defeat Iron Man in a close quarters hand-to-hand fight as he does in the movie. Even Iron Man's computer system sasy so. Add to this that Tony had a broken arm and it was a 2-on-1 fight and there was no way Captain could lose.

1. So, the classic Mission Impossible disguise? Ok, fair enough - it's a comic book movie after all.

2. Not sure how Cap got to Hungary before the joint anti-terrorism task force but ok.

3. Thanks for going into that much detail but I should have been more precise. I know Zemo did but how the hell did he think that that plan would work? Why not just send the footage to Stark when they captured Winter Soldier? Iron Man and Cap was there. He goes through all that trouble on the assumption that all 3 of them would make it to Hydra's secret base in Syberia at the same time?

4. Sorry but no matter the age of Spider-Man, he's stronger, faster, more durable and smarter than Cap. One punch from him and Cap would be out of commission. And Cap is able to fight Iron Man - that says it all. Was Stark pulling his punches? In the end, anyway, it's all good. As if nothing happened, basically.

1.  The technology exists in the universe, as it was sort of important in Winter Soldier.  They also mention he was using it to portray the doctor, so it seems logical that he was using it to impersonate Bucky.

2.  It's not exactly stated, but Cap was able to go on his own.  That means less red tape to go through, less planning and coordination involved, and less precautions taken.  I believe he may still have had access to quinjets which would be faster than what the other guys were using.  I don't remember all the details, but I believe Cap was coming from England (Peggy's funeral), and the other guys were American, so they may have been travelling from further away.

3.  I'm not sure he didn't want to send the video to Iron Man, or leak it.  The video was in Siberia.  He saw Cap, Iron Man, and Bucky arrive together and was like happy birthday to me.  I'm not sure if he would have revealed himself if that hadn't happened.  He had already succeeded in driving a major rift in the Avengers. Even if he didn't fully succeed, half of the Avengers were still in prison, and one Avenger had paralyzed another, while public sentiment was at an all time low. It worked out that thinks worked out as he planned, but I think he might have had a chance to escape if they didn't.  

Basically, this was Zemo hitting a home run.  But even if that last part had worked out, he still would have hit a triple.  And he may not have even been out yet.  It was the type of plan that really didn't need to have everything go perfectly to be a success.

4.  Did Spider-man actually land a punch on him?  I don't think so.  Cap has not only fought in wars, but he's also had experience fighting super powered foes.  Spider-man to this point has fought muggers and such.  Cap used his inexperience to use his webbing against him to win.  

If you've read the early comics, this kind of happens to Spider-man, alot.  He's frequently caught off guard by guys like the Kingpin who has no super powers, getting hit off guard by one of Kraven's gadgets and stuff like that.  In the early days, which he was clearly based on in this movie, he wasn't especially great at using his Spider-sense. In the movie, Spider-man specifically mentions his difficulty with the overwhelming sensory perception.  Even guys like the Vulture (a flying geriatric) and the Shocker give him problems.

Kraven the Hunter, slightly more powerful than Captain America in the comics, was able to hold his own against Spider-man in his early days.  Movie Captain America seems to be significantly stronger than his comic book (616) version, so Kraven is probably a good measuring stick.  An even less experienced Spider-man shouldn't have a significant advantage against Cap.

Spider-man is definitely stronger, but considering all the factors, Cap winning was really not surprising.  Frank Mir was able to defeat Brock Lesnar in Lesnar's debut despite being incredibly outmatched physically.  

Cap has beaten Iron Man a couple of times in the comics.  Cap is a MUCH better fighter.  A 90 year old powerless Cap was able to fight Iron Man (with an Iron Man suit of his own).  That kind of shows how much more skilled he is that he could fight Iron Man with armor he has much less experience in, and no sort of enhanced reflexes.

As for the movie, if you watch the fight, Iron Man isn't really trying to fight Cap, let alone kill him.  He's laser focussed on the Winted Soldier, and a lot of the hits Cap lands is because he's distracted.  He's mostly trying to swat him away to chase after Bucky. That allows Cap to damage his thrusters.  Once his thrusters are out, Iron Man is at a huge disadvantage in terms of speed and maneuverabilty.  He's much slower than Bucky or Cap individually.

Tony only seems to be really fighting Cap once he realizes he can't get Bucky without dealing with Cap.  By that time he's forced into a hand to hand battle, as he can't get enough distance for a ranged fight.  While Iron Man is more durable overall, they only really needed to hit five targets.  With the two thrusters down, his repulsor rays down, and his unibeam down, Iron Man was done.  

 

Some of these things may be unlikely (although not really impossible IMO), but there's nothing that seems anywhere close to impossible.  

On a side note, I didn't at any point feel in any way confused about what was going on.  In terms of location, they tell you pretty much every time they make some kind of jump, and why they were there was always pretty well explained.  I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.  Is there any example you can give?