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Forums - Gaming Discussion - How PS4Neo And PS4 Will Co-Exist

SvennoJ said:

It's not as simple as you're stating. UWP has already demonstrated that there's a lot more to do than a simple config file. This config file situation for multiplatform games is merely a starting point. From there specific optimizations have to be made to ensure consistent performance, sometimes down to a scene by scene basis.  Remove some objects here, bit less grass there, specific draw distance adjustments etc.
On PC you need a healthy overhead or turn some settings down yourself in taxing scenes, on consoles this tweaking is done for you which is time consuming. For 2 hardware specs all that fine tuning doubles. That likely leads to a PC like situation for the NEO, as in leave a healthy overhead to get over the performance bumps, thus only optimizing the base version.


And that is all about multiplatform games made with a scalable PC engine. Console exclusives go a lot deeper into optimizations and customizing game engines, thus a lot more work for 2 hardware specs. For example specific code adjustments to smartly cut some corners, like KZ SF and QB reprojected 1080p modes.

Anyway that all supports what I was trying to get at. Instead of going the extra mile to cram as much as possible into the ps4 version, there is now an alternative. Still show off the best in game graphics, yet some stuff won't quite make it into the ps4 version. Or drop the resolution for the base version. With the extra needed time to test for a second hardware spec, it's only more tempting to put less effort into the best optimized base version, nevermind doing all that work for 2 versions and still sell it to the same userbase.

Besided this is not the same as the PC situation
The CPU binary is identical, while three GPU binaries (shared, PS4-specific and Neo-specific)
Different neo specific GPU code is a bit more than a few settings in a config file.

I don't know, you seem to be making the right points yet at the same time arriving at some strange conclusions. 

1. UWP is nothing compared to PS BSD. If nothing else, there is a ton of legacy code that makes any kinda optimization or cross compatibility a nightmare. 

2. This testing for an extra hardware spec is nowhere near as big as u make it sound. Especially when Said hardware spec will run the games in the exact same way that a PS4b will run them unless the specific config setup for it is on file. And you should have seen that by looking at the last thing you said. 

3. Shared... what both machines will have and thus be able to do. PS4 specific.... what the PS4 can do based on what it exclusively has. And Neo specific... what the extra muscle allows. Now pls remember that on a Neo, they are at the very least already working with something that works. PS4 build. It's not about getting something to work. it's about adding more to something that already works. there are simply too many similarities between the two consoels to be having anywhere near the kinda issues you are suggesting they may have. 

I get that your fear stems from your belief (which granted is founded) that devs will just not put in the required effort since there is another SKU that will make short work of whatever problems the are having with the base model. But what I'm saying is that as long as their is an XB1 version, then rest assured there will be a good PS4 version. And if there isn't an XB1 version, then the dev team has only two PS4 skus to navigate. which in truth aren't event that much different from eachother. 



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binary solo said:

Still not seeing a benifit for games. PS4 and Xb one don't need awesomeness upgrades. Wii U clearly does, but that's because it started out with gen 7.5 hardware.

If I'm willing to spend $400 every 6 years then the reason for that is because I want to experience that generational leap. I'm not interested in 30% more power. I'm interested in 100%-200% more power. PS3 had 512MB RAM, PS4 has 8GB. That's a 1500% increase, that's what I want when I go to spend my $400. I'm not interested in spending $200 twice to get 2 rounds of minor improvements two years after the fact and be constantly gaming on low tier hardware with gimped versions of games within the same console eco-system.  

ok. let me put it this way.

this is happening cause we are at point where that generational leap no longer exists.

need proof?

just look at 6th>7th gen, then 7th to 8th gen.

things need to change when all you can get in the next generational leap are higher rez and framerates



vivster said:
SvennoJ said:

advertise with the fancy ps4k version and downgrade the ps4 version.

Which is how it should be if you prefer performance in your games over visual gimmicks that barely add anything to the game.

You shouldn't think that "optimization" is a magic spell that suddenly makes 60 fps out of 30. There are extreme hardware limitations and optimization can only do so much. A 60 fps uncharted is simply impossible with the same level of visual fidelity. Unless they invent a completely new way to render games which no one has thought of before. But then we get into the realm of diminishing returns.

No developer on this planet wants to optimize. They have to because they don't want to compromise and they don't have any choice. Optimizing is a chore and can even lead to even more bugs. Everyone is talking about the burden of developing for 2 platforms. I think the burden of having to basically work magic to fit a game on a very constrained platform is an even bigger burden that costs time, money and effort for ultimately only very small gains.

So what I think you're saying is that NEO is a good thing as it gives some overhead to developers, or an out basically to keep the fancy graphics on the NEO and spend less effort optimizing the base version by cutting or toning down some elements instead. And that way developers can compensate for or gain back the time from the additional testing and QA. Basically the time for console type optimization is done and PC overhead will be it for the future.

Btw these limitations of consoles have led to new ways to render games which no one had thought of before.
Optimizing is actually very rewarding to do, but maybe I'm an exception :) (Testing on different machines sucks)

Intrinsic said:

I don't know, you seem to be making the right points yet at the same time arriving at some strange conclusions. 

1. UWP is nothing compared to PS BSD. If nothing else, there is a ton of legacy code that makes any kinda optimization or cross compatibility a nightmare. 

2. This testing for an extra hardware spec is nowhere near as big as u make it sound. Especially when Said hardware spec will run the games in the exact same way that a PS4b will run them unless the specific config setup for it is on file. And you should have seen that by looking at the last thing you said. 

3. Shared... what both machines will have and thus be able to do. PS4 specific.... what the PS4 can do based on what it exclusively has. And Neo specific... what the extra muscle allows. Now pls remember that on a Neo, they are at the very least already working with something that works. PS4 build. It's not about getting something to work. it's about adding more to something that already works. there are simply too many similarities between the two consoels to be having anywhere near the kinda issues you are suggesting they may have. 

I get that your fear stems from your belief (which granted is founded) that devs will just not put in the required effort since there is another SKU that will make short work of whatever problems the are having with the base model. But what I'm saying is that as long as their is an XB1 version, then rest assured there will be a good PS4 version. And if there isn't an XB1 version, then the dev team has only two PS4 skus to navigate. which in truth aren't event that much different from eachother. 

Devs will still want to put in the required effort, yet time constraints, extra verification steps, multiple gpu binaries, they simply won't have the time on the same budget to put in the same effort as before. XB1 version and PS4 version are 2 different user bases, extra profit, ps4 + neo, same user base, no extra profit.

Btw it doesn't matter that the hardware is supposed to run the code exactly the same. It still needs to be verified. Software development doesn't work on assumptions and good faith. I've had plenty experience chasing hard to reproduce bugs on specific hardware configurations, same type processor, slightly different clockspeed, threads play slightly differently together while relying on each other and you have an opportunity for a fatal crash.


Coding for consoles and coding for PC are 2 completely different philosophies. Or were, until consoles converged to become PCs. I guess the days are over of those late gen games no one thought possible. As well as the excitement of a generational leap. Is it really worth paying $400 again for minor upgrades to get smooth running games, while likely in 3 years the games on that new machine will be the ones struggling when the next iteration appears. I moved to consoles to get away from that 'is it time to upgrade again' question when new games start to drop too many frames.



It all seems like a fantastic future ahead judging by the growing rumors. backwards compatibility seems to be forever assured going forward starting from ps4. I kind of predicted this once it turned out Sony were changing to x86 architecture for this generation. No more exotic hardware that takes a decade to master, possibility to facilitate hardware upgrades without the gargantuan R&D costs of the past and a faster porting to/from PC.

Especially since the upgrade seems to be of about 2.5x in terms of performance per watt it seems significant enough for me to go for it. Still holding hope on a better CPU, i'd pay the extra 100 for them to ditch Jaguar.



Intrinsic said:
I really dont know how people didn't see all this coming.

I think I made a thread sometime last year where I said that we may be at the cusp of the end generational leaps as we know it and how the industry will adopt a more iteration based system. It just no longer makes sense for consoles to have a primary shelf life of 6-8yrs anymore. Especially when we factor in that for the next 20 or so years (like it or not) the only real differences in tech will come down to resolution, frame rates and tons of little things that aren't "game breaking". Just look at game running on $4000+ PC rigs today compared to consoles. What is really the difference. Can anyone honestly say that there is a $3700 difference in performance? The differences between Wither 3 on consoles today and a high end PC are better framerates, better rez, better LOD, higher rez textures and shadow maps (maybe faster loading)...... none of those things are game breaking omissions when compared to the "inferior" console builds.

by the time the PS6 comes out, or whatever it's called; I not only expect it to be fully backward compatible but I expect everything from the PS4 and up to be forward compatible with it. Even if it means the PS4.0 just runs PS6 games at 480p@30fps.

This is what people don't seem to get. It's just stupid for any console manufacturer to toss away an entire install base every 5-7yrs at the time when they stand to make the most money from them simply cause they wanna add higher resolutions, better framerates ....etc when they can adopt a system that ensures their user base continues to grow while still offering the most cutting edge " console" tech they can to the consumer.

Think if it as the beginning g of a closed open platform. Those people that don't mind gaming at 720p@30fps will have a sub $150 console to buy but still game with everyone else. Those people that want to play at 4k@30fps and all other bells and whistles will have a $400+ console to buy. But Sony builds APIs that make it easy for devs to scale their games properly across all their available skus.

There is a lot more to what this means to everyone else. But I can't really get into that. I'll put it this way tho, if things pan out the way I really see them going.... expect to see Nintendo games on a PlayStation not too far away from now.

I agree with you but I think this new environment would make developers life hell on Earth, having to optmize to multiple skus and asuring nothing game breaking is happnign on a 10 years old PS4 (down the line of course) while it runs a game that is meant to a 10x more powerfull machine.



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PS4 will still the be the lead platform, after fully completed, then optimize for Neo before it gone gold

just so simple



So now we will get one more version for Digital Foundry to compare: ps4 Vs Xone Vs PC Vs ps4NEO !



SvennoJ said:
vivster said:

Which is how it should be if you prefer performance in your games over visual gimmicks that barely add anything to the game.

You shouldn't think that "optimization" is a magic spell that suddenly makes 60 fps out of 30. There are extreme hardware limitations and optimization can only do so much. A 60 fps uncharted is simply impossible with the same level of visual fidelity. Unless they invent a completely new way to render games which no one has thought of before. But then we get into the realm of diminishing returns.

No developer on this planet wants to optimize. They have to because they don't want to compromise and they don't have any choice. Optimizing is a chore and can even lead to even more bugs. Everyone is talking about the burden of developing for 2 platforms. I think the burden of having to basically work magic to fit a game on a very constrained platform is an even bigger burden that costs time, money and effort for ultimately only very small gains.

So what I think you're saying is that NEO is a good thing as it gives some overhead to developers, or an out basically to keep the fancy graphics on the NEO and spend less effort optimizing the base version by cutting or toning down some elements instead. And that way developers can compensate for or gain back the time from the additional testing and QA. Basically the time for console type optimization is done and PC overhead will be it for the future.

Btw these limitations of consoles have led to new ways to render games which no one had thought of before.
Optimizing is actually very rewarding to do, but maybe I'm an exception :) (Testing on different machines sucks)

Intrinsic said:

I don't know, you seem to be making the right points yet at the same time arriving at some strange conclusions. 

1. UWP is nothing compared to PS BSD. If nothing else, there is a ton of legacy code that makes any kinda optimization or cross compatibility a nightmare. 

2. This testing for an extra hardware spec is nowhere near as big as u make it sound. Especially when Said hardware spec will run the games in the exact same way that a PS4b will run them unless the specific config setup for it is on file. And you should have seen that by looking at the last thing you said. 

3. Shared... what both machines will have and thus be able to do. PS4 specific.... what the PS4 can do based on what it exclusively has. And Neo specific... what the extra muscle allows. Now pls remember that on a Neo, they are at the very least already working with something that works. PS4 build. It's not about getting something to work. it's about adding more to something that already works. there are simply too many similarities between the two consoels to be having anywhere near the kinda issues you are suggesting they may have. 

I get that your fear stems from your belief (which granted is founded) that devs will just not put in the required effort since there is another SKU that will make short work of whatever problems the are having with the base model. But what I'm saying is that as long as their is an XB1 version, then rest assured there will be a good PS4 version. And if there isn't an XB1 version, then the dev team has only two PS4 skus to navigate. which in truth aren't event that much different from eachother. 

Devs will still want to put in the required effort, yet time constraints, extra verification steps, multiple gpu binaries, they simply won't have the time on the same budget to put in the same effort as before. XB1 version and PS4 version are 2 different user bases, extra profit, ps4 + neo, same user base, no extra profit.

Btw it doesn't matter that the hardware is supposed to run the code exactly the same. It still needs to be verified. Software development doesn't work on assumptions and good faith. I've had plenty experience chasing hard to reproduce bugs on specific hardware configurations, same type processor, slightly different clockspeed, threads play slightly differently together while relying on each other and you have an opportunity for a fatal crash.


Coding for consoles and coding for PC are 2 completely different philosophies. Or were, until consoles converged to become PCs. I guess the days are over of those late gen games no one thought possible. As well as the excitement of a generational leap. Is it really worth paying $400 again for minor upgrades to get smooth running games, while likely in 3 years the games on that new machine will be the ones struggling when the next iteration appears. I moved to consoles to get away from that 'is it time to upgrade again' question when new games start to drop too many frames.

As a dev myself (but on the gaming side only on my free time), you said it all ! Especially the bolded part.

If PS4 Neo as described is true (I don't believe it yet), devs won't like this.



I don't know... despite the good intention, I think this revision will cause a shit storm and undo all the good work the PS4 has done.



KungKras said:
Ruler said:

So could you play 32X games on the megadrive?

You could play megadrive games on a 32X

Just like with PS1 games on PS2

SvennoJ said:
Ruler said:

It could defeniatley run a little better if the game dropped below 30fps for example,  because the GPU and CPU have a higher clock speed.

I wonder if the clock speed is set to ps4 specs if the game runs in ps4 mode, the same as on N3DS.
Letting an optimized console game run with different clock speeds for CPU and GPU requires more testing and can have unexpected side effects. A lot depends on timing, you can't suddenly have some tasks finishing faster than others. Suggesting that it needs a patch seems to confirm that.
(And you can hack the n3ds to unlock the faster cpu speed for older games at your own risk)

Looking through the comments on Eurogamer, NEO has already accomplished 1 thing, succesfully split the usebase.

Like the gaming community was ever united in the first place?

PS4 is based on PC architecture, ther wont be any errors on Neo. It should run faster like if you overclock your cpu on pc. I never had any site effects doing that on pc