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Forums - Sony Discussion - PS4.5/PS4K Is Codenamed 'NEO' And More Info

AnthonyW86 on 19 April 2016
potato_hamster said:
AnthonyW86 said:

Worse case scenario you will have only minor benefit with the PS4 NEO, so what's the problem?

As a developer you're faced with two choiced, increased development costs with no anticipation of greater sales, or maintaining current development costs and splitting resources that would be spent fully developing the PS4 game now working on making the PS4K enhancements.

So you either have a more expensive, less profitable game, or a poorer quality game than you would have if you just had to focus on making a PS4 game.

So why would I be excited about this if i was a third party developer? Sony just made my job more difficult for no reason.

Because this will increase the PS4's install base meaning more potential buyers for your games.



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walsufnir on 19 April 2016
fatslob-:O said:
walsufnir said:

 

Well, there is only one thing to know: in real life, you won't get this bandwidth. Eurogamer had an article about AF on consoles and the article said that when CPU and GPU have access on memory, the bandwidth is way less.

I know the GPU will never get the theoretical limit when considering memory accesses from the CPU but what I'm asking is how does drkohler know that memory bandwidth is bottleneck ? 

Well, the lack of AF is at least an indicator that there is a bandwidth issue. Some games were patched, others not and some have varying AF levels throughout the game, even exclusive games. 



potato_hamster on 19 April 2016
AnthonyW86 said:
potato_hamster said:

As a developer you're faced with two choiced, increased development costs with no anticipation of greater sales, or maintaining current development costs and splitting resources that would be spent fully developing the PS4 game now working on making the PS4K enhancements.

So you either have a more expensive, less profitable game, or a poorer quality game than you would have if you just had to focus on making a PS4 game.

So why would I be excited about this if i was a third party developer? Sony just made my job more difficult for no reason.

Because this will increase the PS4's install base meaning more potential buyers for your games.

How does it increase the PS4's install base? It would only increase the install base if the people who are buying it are people that wouldn't have otherwise have bought a PS4. What are the odds there's going to be many of those people? If they weren't interested in a PS4 at $400 four years ago why would they suddenly be interested in a PS4K at $400 now? If the specs are correct, the gap between the average gaming PC and the PS4 in 2013 is smaller than the gap between the average  gaming PC, and the PS4K now. There is no reason to expect this group to me more than a small fraction of PS4 owners, or even PS4K owners.

Anyone who "upgrades" their PS4 or Xbox One was just as likely to buy my game in the first place, so that's not an additional sale.

Aside from that, even if I make a game just for the OG PS4, whoes to say that those new PS4K owners wouldn't buy my game anyways?

So really the only people who make the investment in developing specifically for the PS4K worth it are those that otherwise wouldn't have bought a PS4 if the PS4K didn't exist, and of those the people wouldn't have bought my game unless it was made for the PS4K. You're talking about a fraction of a fraction of PS4 owners.



Mike321 on 19 April 2016

"Neo" is a pretty dope codename tho.



                                                                                     

fatslob-:O on 19 April 2016
walsufnir said:

Well, the lack of AF is at least an indicator that there is a bandwidth issue. Some games were patched, others not and some have varying AF levels throughout the game, even exclusive games. 

How when PS4 has a higher BW/sampler ratio compared to most AMD GPUs ? 

My guess is the lack of AF is more due to lowered texture sampler output rather than bandwidth ... 



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HoloDust on 19 April 2016
drkohler said:
Nate4Drake said:

Nope ! Sony and AMD have a much higher understanding than anybody here about hardware, and 218GB/s memory bandwidth is more than enough considering The new Polaris Architecture is a lot more efficient, and "less memory bandwidth hungry"; also, don't forget about PS4 being heavily geared towards asynchronous compute which will allow non-graphics calulations to be done on the GPU !!! ... Don't say things you have no idea, please

Pot calling the kettle?

I hate to tell you but the PS4 is already choking on the 176GB/s bandwidth available. If you think that a 30% faster CPU and a 220% more powerful GPU can be satisfied with 218GB/s, you are seriously wrong. leaving aside wherever that weird bandwidth comes from, it doesn't exist in any gddr5 data sheet. And while we are on the subject, if you do more gpgpu work as you imply (which is correct if developers actually used it), you also grab/send more memory down memory lane. So you not only have a higher CPU and much higher Graphics Compute load on the memory bus, you would also have an additional GPGPU load tacked on it, in the end three "customers" are fighting for the one memory bus. There is an advantage having a common memory pool for everyone, but there is also a serious disadvantage - when too many processors fight for it. 

I'm kinda on the edge on memory bandwidth issue here - if it was nVidia's GPU, I'd say those ~220GB/s would be probably barely enough (given that 980 has 224GB/s on a 2048:128:64 config), but it's AMD - so yeah, but no. Then again, if it's basically rumoured Polaris based 480 (40CUs with 4 disabled) inside...who knows.

P.S. Nice to see you back in action, now that new hardware is releasing.



malistix1985 on 19 April 2016

If its true I will just be a little sad but accept it and move on, If it wasn't true I expect sony would have commented by now




Twitter @CyberMalistix

SvennoJ on 19 April 2016
walsufnir said:
Guy with the mononoke avatar, post if you're ok ☺
Well, the classic console cycle is over. MS will follow news wise (they are most probably already developing a new iteration), Sony is officially doing it and nobody knows what Nintendo is going to do.

Just reading the article on Eurogamer which seems to have received the same documentation and it leaves me scratching my head...
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-sonys-plan-for-playstation-4k-neo-revealed

No HDR, no UHD playback, no dedicated VR box, leaves me with zero reason to buy a slim. Just a lot of uncertainty how games are going to support both versions and what effect it will have on psvr. For now, I won't be trying to pre-order psvr anymore. I'll wait, maybe get an NX this year. I feel more like playing Zelda now instead of whatever is going on at Sony.

I might not even bother with Uncharted 4, can always get it cheap later for the Neo. Waiting worked to my advantage when the ps4 came out with GTA5 and Tombraider. if anything will get NEO enhancements, Uncharted 4 will be there. And this time it's not a remaster and should be dirt cheap by the time the Neo slim arrives.

Maybe MS will make an XBox One slim with UHD playback, or are they seriously going to leave me with no choice but a standalone player this gen.



Nate4Drake on 19 April 2016
HoloDust said:
drkohler said:

Pot calling the kettle?

I hate to tell you but the PS4 is already choking on the 176GB/s bandwidth available. If you think that a 30% faster CPU and a 220% more powerful GPU can be satisfied with 218GB/s, you are seriously wrong. leaving aside wherever that weird bandwidth comes from, it doesn't exist in any gddr5 data sheet. And while we are on the subject, if you do more gpgpu work as you imply (which is correct if developers actually used it), you also grab/send more memory down memory lane. So you not only have a higher CPU and much higher Graphics Compute load on the memory bus, you would also have an additional GPGPU load tacked on it, in the end three "customers" are fighting for the one memory bus. There is an advantage having a common memory pool for everyone, but there is also a serious disadvantage - when too many processors fight for it. 

I'm kinda on the edge on memory bandwidth issue here - if it was nVidia's GPU, I'd say those ~220GB/s would be probably barely enough (given that 980 has 224GB/s on a 2048:128:64 config), but it's AMD - so yeah, but no. Then again, if it's basically rumoured Polaris based 480 (40CUs with 4 disabled) inside...who knows.

P.S. Nice to see you back in action, now that new hardware is releasing.

I believe that Sony and AMD know more than our friend drkohler.

The new Polaris GPU is for sure more efficient, and "less memory bandwidth hungry"; we are not talking about PCs, and we are not talking about PS4; it's PS4 NEO with most probably Polaris GPU architecture, and if Sony and AMD say 218gb/sec is what the system needs, this is what the system needs, end of the story. Do we want to teach AMD how to make a new Console ? Please, let's try to not be ridiculous : let's wait and see for the final specs and official words from Sony. 



”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

Harriet Tubman.

AnthonyW86 on 19 April 2016
potato_hamster said:
AnthonyW86 said:

Because this will increase the PS4's install base meaning more potential buyers for your games.

How does it increase the PS4's install base? It would only increase the install base if the people who are buying it are people that wouldn't have otherwise have bought a PS4. What are the odds there's going to be many of those people? If they weren't interested in a PS4 at $400 four years ago why would they suddenly be interested in a PS4K at $400 now? If the specs are correct, the gap between the average gaming PC and the PS4 in 2013 is smaller than the gap between the average  gaming PC, and the PS4K now. There is no reason to expect this group to me more than a small fraction of PS4 owners, or even PS4K owners.

Anyone who "upgrades" their PS4 or Xbox One was just as likely to buy my game in the first place, so that's not an additional sale.

Aside from that, even if I make a game just for the OG PS4, whoes to say that those new PS4K owners wouldn't buy my game anyways?

So really the only people who make the investment in developing specifically for the PS4K worth it are those that otherwise wouldn't have bought a PS4 if the PS4K didn't exist, and of those the people wouldn't have bought my game unless it was made for the PS4K. You're talking about a fraction of a fraction of PS4 owners.

You are forgetting the people who will upgrade to PS4K, they will sell their current PS4 off to other people. So every single PS4K sold increases the install base(regardless of already owning a PS4 or not), aside from sales of the original PS4 system wich will likely go down to $299.

This is a mid-gen upgrade, so the PS4 will get software support for years. That means that every PS4 out there is part of the active user base, unlike many PS3's collecting dust shortly after PS4 released. PS4 and PS4K add together to create one large install base. And not just for games, also for PS Plus.