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Forums - Gaming Discussion - We need to talk about Superman for a second..(Batman vs Superman spoilers)

S.T.A.G.E. said:
Hynad said:

There's only one story in BvS. And it's quite an easy film to follow.

Um...sorry but no.

There were bits of Flashpoint Paradox (Flash dreams)

Justice League War (Cyborg video borrowed from war animation, Visions of the Parademons in the future)

and Batman vs Superman (loosely based off of the actual comic and animation. Of course, featuring no Green Arrow)

Then we have the dawn of justice plot which is the precursor for the Justice League in itself featuring none other than Lex Luthor.

The whole fact that Doomsday was an issue. Didnt you notice that fan complaints stopped once they took Doomsday out of the commercial and left it just as Superman vs Batman?

DC has been taking liberties using old storylines from their most successful animated films and novels and cramming as much nonsensical information into one barely coherent script.

Lexes motivations were not known throughout the whole movie. We knew what he was waiting for and we knew that he set things up...but never knew why. A waste of two and a half hours that never finds its resolution as to his logic. A movie like this is only as strong as its primary antagonists ambitions and motivations and it lacks there beyond reason.

 

As the editor said, the original cut was was four hours. What they should've done was made this into a two part story with Batman vs Superman and then Dawn of Justice. 

Those are set-ups for a sequel. The movie was still a single story told quite simply, and easy to follow.

I'm not going to agree with you when I had an easy time keeping up with what was going on. 

You take the elements of the story, and separate them as if they were the comic books from which the movie takes its inflences. They're not their comic books counterparts. This movie told a different take on these events and included them in a single story. They're not separate entities. They're all elements that build up to a climax, just like in any other movies. 

As for the movie not explaining everything, they're setting up the sequel and other movies. The videos showcasing other "super" beings present the viewers with elements of Lex's character. He's had his eyes on those beings. He knows. That's not separate stories. In the movie, they're showing us that Lex has known about those being for quite some time now and it explains parts of his behaviour and actions. 

You look at things and remove them from their context, based on what you know from outside the movie (comics, other movies, whatever else), instead of looking at the movie as it is and linking its parts together.

The movie is a single story.  And no amount of nay-saying will make me see it otherwise. I simply ain't getting on this hate-train you're on. And really, it's actually quite obvious that's what you'rte doing. And when someone does that, there's simply no point arguing. They simply don't [want to] see what's right on front of them. 

I used to like debating/arguing with people like that, trying to make them see otherwise, but I simply don't have the energy/will to do that anymore, and quite honestly, I simply couldn't give a rats ass about what other people think I should hate.



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Hynad said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

Um...sorry but no.

There were bits of Flashpoint Paradox (Flash dreams)

Justice League War (Cyborg video borrowed from war animation, Visions of the Parademons in the future)

and Batman vs Superman (loosely based off of the actual comic and animation. Of course, featuring no Green Arrow)

Then we have the dawn of justice plot which is the precursor for the Justice League in itself featuring none other than Lex Luthor.

The whole fact that Doomsday was an issue. Didnt you notice that fan complaints stopped once they took Doomsday out of the commercial and left it just as Superman vs Batman?

DC has been taking liberties using old storylines from their most successful animated films and novels and cramming as much nonsensical information into one barely coherent script.

Lexes motivations were not known throughout the whole movie. We knew what he was waiting for and we knew that he set things up...but never knew why. A waste of two and a half hours that never finds its resolution as to his logic. A movie like this is only as strong as its primary antagonists ambitions and motivations and it lacks there beyond reason.

 

As the editor said, the original cut was was four hours. What they should've done was made this into a two part story with Batman vs Superman and then Dawn of Justice. 

Those are set-ups for a sequel. The movie was still a single story told quite simply, and easy to follow.

I'm not going to agree with you when I had an easy time keeping up with what was going on. 

You take the elements of the story, and separate them as if they were the comic books from which the movie takes its inflences. They're not their comic books counterparts. This movie told a different take on these events and included them in a single story. They're not separate entities. They're all elements that build up to a climax, just like in any other movies. 

As for the movie not explaining everything, they're setting up the sequel and other movies. The videos showcasing other characters present the viewers with elements of Lex's character. He's had his eyes on those beings. That's not separate stories. In the movie, they're showing us that Lex has known about those being for quite some time now and it explains parts of his behaviour and actions. 

You look at things and remove them from their context, based on what you know from outside the movie (comics, other movies, whatever else), instead of looking at the movie as it is and linking its parts together.

The movie is a single story. 

Lets hasn't known about the situation for quite some time. He did not know what was in the ship until he was given the liberty to check it by the military. After that point was he privy to the alien knowledge. Before that he was framing Superman numerous times and for what? Nothing. He didnt even get into trouble for the acts of doomsday, but rather just the bombing.

I never once said this movie wasnt one story, but its inspirations were a collision course of different events taking place in one incoherent script. Hopefully I am guessing that they think the extended cut will help them recoup money and help the theatrical version make sense, so we shall see.

The fact that they are releasing more is an admission to what I am saying.



S.T.A.G.E. said:
Hynad said:

Those are set-ups for a sequel. The movie was still a single story told quite simply, and easy to follow.

I'm not going to agree with you when I had an easy time keeping up with what was going on. 

You take the elements of the story, and separate them as if they were the comic books from which the movie takes its inflences. They're not their comic books counterparts. This movie told a different take on these events and included them in a single story. They're not separate entities. They're all elements that build up to a climax, just like in any other movies. 

As for the movie not explaining everything, they're setting up the sequel and other movies. The videos showcasing other characters present the viewers with elements of Lex's character. He's had his eyes on those beings. That's not separate stories. In the movie, they're showing us that Lex has known about those being for quite some time now and it explains parts of his behaviour and actions. 

You look at things and remove them from their context, based on what you know from outside the movie (comics, other movies, whatever else), instead of looking at the movie as it is and linking its parts together.

The movie is a single story. 

Lets hasn't known about the situation for quite some time. He did not know what was in the ship until he was given the liberty to check it by the military. After that point was he privy to the alien knowledge. Before that he was framing Superman numerous times and for what? Nothing. He didnt even get into trouble for the acts of doomsday, but rather just the bombing.

I never once said this movie wasnt one story, but its inspirations were a collision course of different events taking place in one incoherent script. Hopefully I am guessing that they think the extended cut will help them recoup money and help the theatrical version make sense, so we shall see.

The fact that they are releasing more is an admission to what I am saying.

Quit with the hyperbole.

The movie has already made over 800M at the BO. It's been profitable for quite some time now.



d21lewis said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

Very true. Marvel is turning many of their b list characters into A list characters .  DC cannot say the same.

I don't know. They've only made two movies in this universe. We'll see what Suicide Squad does.  It's definitely not a roster of their best characters. Only a few are known by casual fans. I have my fingers crossed that it's a good movie. Nobody (aside from blind fanboys, I guess) actually wants a movie to be bad.

 

*edit* I see where I said Iron Man wasn't an "A-List character".  I may have misspoken. In the 90's ( when they said comics sucked but it's when I got into comics), it was all about X-Men characters and Spider-man at Marvel comics. That's why they got guys like Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld to reboot the " non mutant " heroes in the Heroes Reborn storyline. When they did "Heroes Return", the Avengers were a big deal again.  There's probably a thousand heroes in the Avengers but (just like how Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are the JLA's " Trinity "), Captain America, Thor, and Iron Man have been the " Trinity". Iron Man was an important guy but, for a period between maybe 1997-2006, his stories weren't very memorable. He was like Silver Surfer or Dr. Strange. People knew him and he even had his own cartoons but they didn't really care about him. He wasn't an icon, imo.

funny enough, Iron Man still isnt an A lister at least not in the comics. His books dont sell as well as alot of the Marvel stuff



Hynad said:

Quit with the hyperbole.

The movie has already made over 800M at the BO. It's been profitable for quite some time now.

Explain my hyperbole. Look up the extended cut that is possibly coming to theaters that is primarily slated for the Blu Ray (possibly gaining it an R rating).

Secondly, It was common knowledge that this movie has to gain a billion to be considered generally profitable because of the larger budget outside of the actual movie development itself.

 

http://entertainment.ie/cinema/news/Batman-V-Superman-needs-to-make-HOW-MUCH-before-turning-a-profit/378919.htm

"Well according to Peter Bart at Deadline, you're talking pretty close to a billion dollars; he estimates that it will likely break even in and around the $800 million mark, which is an insane number. But the studio will be looking at the film as a catalyst for a series that will ultimately create a new universe of heroes and anti-heroes - Suicide Squad drops in August, Wonder Woman is currently in production."



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Hynad said:

Quit with the hyperbole.

The movie has already made over 800M at the BO. It's been profitable for quite some time now.

Explain my hyperbole. Look up the extended cut that is possibly coming to theaters that is primarily slated for the Blu Ray (possibly gaining it an R rating).

Secondly, It was common knowledge that this movie has to gain a billion to be considered generally profitable because of the larger budget outside of the actual movie development itself.

 

http://entertainment.ie/cinema/news/Batman-V-Superman-needs-to-make-HOW-MUCH-before-turning-a-profit/378919.htm

"Well according to Peter Bart at Deadline, you're talking pretty close to a billion dollars; he estimates that it will likely break even in and around the $800 million mark, which is an insane number. But the studio will be looking at the film as a catalyst for a series that will ultimately create a new universe of heroes and anti-heroes - Suicide Squad drops in August, Wonder Woman is currently in production."



S.T.A.G.E. said:
Hynad said:

Quit with the hyperbole.

The movie has already made over 800M at the BO. It's been profitable for quite some time now.

Explain my hyperbole. Look up the extended cut that is possibly coming to theaters that is primarily slated for the Blu Ray (possibly gaining it an R rating).

Secondly, It was common knowledge that this movie has to gain a billion to be considered generally profitable because of the larger budget outside of the actual movie development itself.

 

http://entertainment.ie/cinema/news/Batman-V-Superman-needs-to-make-HOW-MUCH-before-turning-a-profit/378919.htm

"Well according to Peter Bart at Deadline, you're talking pretty close to a billion dollars; he estimates that it will likely break even in and around the $800 million mark, which is an insane number. But the studio will be looking at the film as a catalyst for a series that will ultimately create a new universe of heroes and anti-heroes - Suicide Squad drops in August, Wonder Woman is currently in production."

No, it is not common knowledge that it needs close to a bilion. It's the claims of Marvel's irrational fans that every superhero movies should do Avengers numbers or else they're considered failures both at the BO and finacially. The fact that we know for sure is that the movie cost 250M to make. The rest is hearsay and assumptions based on nothing official. Even your quote says that a guy, with no ties to WB, gives an estimate with a number taken from his ass.

As for the extended version, this is a rumor (about having a run in theater). In fact, you base most of your arguments on rumors and hearsay and take them as facts. It's actually telling me you approach this matter with an agenda. Which is why I think it is futile to continue discussing this with you.



Hynad said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

Explain my hyperbole. Look up the extended cut that is possibly coming to theaters that is primarily slated for the Blu Ray (possibly gaining it an R rating).

Secondly, It was common knowledge that this movie has to gain a billion to be considered generally profitable because of the larger budget outside of the actual movie development itself.

 

http://entertainment.ie/cinema/news/Batman-V-Superman-needs-to-make-HOW-MUCH-before-turning-a-profit/378919.htm

"Well according to Peter Bart at Deadline, you're talking pretty close to a billion dollars; he estimates that it will likely break even in and around the $800 million mark, which is an insane number. But the studio will be looking at the film as a catalyst for a series that will ultimately create a new universe of heroes and anti-heroes - Suicide Squad drops in August, Wonder Woman is currently in production."

No, it is not common knowledge that it needs close to a bilion. It's the claims of Marvel's irrational fans that every superhero movies should do Avengers numbers or else they're considered failures both at the BO and finacially. The fact that we know for sure is that the movie cost 250M to make. The rest is hearsay and assumptions based on nothing official. Even your quote says that a guy, with no ties to WB, gives an estimate with a number taken from his ass.

As for the extended version, this is a rumor (about having a run in theater). In fact, you base most of your arguments on rumors and hearsay and take them as facts. It's actually telling me you approach this matter with an agenda. Which is why I think it is futile to continue discussing this with you.

Says there that it needs 800 million to break even. To profit it would need to go beyond that. There is no agenda. What do I have to gain from all of this? You say its futile, but you're have a belief about this movie not having many issues when ive pointed out many. You have not plugged them and I doubt you can. Agreeing to disagree is all that can happen here. Im not trying to convince you to hate the movie. Im just discussing my issues with the film and you're taking it to the heart.



Face it, superman is an old and overpowered character. It is difficult to fit him in any story without ruining it.

 

And you know why? Spoiler, but he isn't really dead. The guy can't really be killed.

Everyone is tired of the old "mary sue" "goody two shoes" superman. He isn't relatable. The new portrayal shows him as a flawed human beeing. That is more realistic.



S.T.A.G.E. said:
Hynad said:

No, it is not common knowledge that it needs close to a bilion. It's the claims of Marvel's irrational fans that every superhero movies should do Avengers numbers or else they're considered failures both at the BO and finacially. The fact that we know for sure is that the movie cost 250M to make. The rest is hearsay and assumptions based on nothing official. Even your quote says that a guy, with no ties to WB, gives an estimate with a number taken from his ass.

As for the extended version, this is a rumor (about having a run in theater). In fact, you base most of your arguments on rumors and hearsay and take them as facts. It's actually telling me you approach this matter with an agenda. Which is why I think it is futile to continue discussing this with you.

Says there that it needs 800 million to break even. To profit it would need to go beyond that. There is no agenda. What do I have to gain from all of this? You say its futile, but you're have a belief about this movie not having many issues when ive pointed out many. You have not plugged them and I doubt you can. Agreeing to disagree is all that can happen here. Im not trying to convince you to hate the movie. Im just discussing my issues with the film and you're taking it to the heart.

That's his assumptions, his estimate. Do you read what I write? Heck, did you actually read the link you provided? This number is taken from his ass. Not from anything official from WB. I don't believe there is issues with the movie that warrant such trashing of it. All the issues you pointed out are empty. Everything is in the movie explaining those. Or they're hint of what's to come in future movies. I can't find issues where I don't see any. I understood the movie fully, and found everything needed to explain what was going on and the character's motivations. The movie didn't spoon-fed its audience. A lot of the emotional aspects of the characters, for example, you don't have a character voicing exactly how he feels about something or why exactly he reacts a certain way. Yet with the elements found within the movie, it was enough for me to get them.

That you didn't really doesn't make the movie trash.

Also, Superman is still at the start of his "hero career", in a world where people aren't yet sure if they want him or not. He's not in a world where the actions of the superheroes  barely have concequences like you see in most Marvel movies (Oh! But all of a sudden, they now do in Civil War... -__-). They are grounding it with the "what if it happened on our real world" point of view as much as the superhero genre allows it. His challenge isn't only with who he has to physically fight. It's also against the very people he's trying to protect. He's doing these deeds while his motivations are constantly being questioned and actions put into scrutiny. As would happen if such a being existed for real. He is both feared by people who don't understand him, as well as worshipped by those he save or inspire. I think it is fairly normal for him to have his own doubts as well, given the situation and how early in his career this is all happening. He still has an inner battle to fight, and when he comes to term with it all, he'll be a more optimistic Superman. It's simply the route to get there, right now, yet people don't get that and expect a 2D representation of the character, because that is what they're used to see in most superhero movies. Paper-thin stereotypes with funny banter and one-liners.
 
In any case, I have no issues with the movie, other than the 30 minutes that was cut from it's intended lenght so it could get its targeted rating. It has nothing to do with the movie being a mess because it's quite far from one.