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Forums - General Discussion - Are Westerners taking advantage of Japanese content creators? Fan Translations = piracy

Ruler said:
pokoko said:

"*(in fact most Western countries are richer than Japan)" -- You've got to be kidding.

 

Johnw1104 said:

 First, I'm not sure why you think Japan is "poorer" than most of these countries you mention when they trail only China and the US in gdp.

 

 

Ka-pi96 said:

Saying something is a fact means it should be true. That's not true...

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD/countries/JP-EU-US?display=graph

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD/countries/JP-EU?order=wbapi_data_value_2014%20wbapi_data_value%20wbapi_data_value-last&sort=desc&display=default

 

Country name2011201220132014   
Luxembourg 113,239.6 105,447.1 113,726.6 116,664.3    
Norway 100,575.1 101,563.7 102,832.3 97,307.4    
Qatar 89,115.9 94,407.4 96,077.0 96,732.4    
Macao SAR, China 67,013.0 77,078.8 90,331.8 96,038.1    
Switzerland 88,002.6 83,208.7 84,669.3 85,594.3    
Australia 62,216.5 67,646.1 67,627.8 61,925.5    
Denmark 61,304.1 57,636.1 59,818.6 60,707.2    
Sweden 59,593.7 57,134.1 60,283.2 58,938.8    
Singapore 53,121.2 54,577.1 55,979.8 56,284.6    
United States 49,781.4 51,456.7 52,980.0 54,629.5    
Ireland 52,828.4 48,976.9 51,814.9 54,374.4    
Netherlands 53,537.3 49,474.7 51,425.1 52,172.2    
Iceland 45,970.9 44,258.8 47,493.2 52,004.5    
Austria 51,123.6 48,324.3 50,557.8 51,190.8    
Canada 52,086.5 52,733.5 52,305.3 50,235.4    
Finland 50,787.6 47,415.6 49,492.8 49,823.7    
Germany 45,936.1 44,010.9 46,441.7 47,821.9    
Belgium 47,699.8 44,731.2 46,625.3 47,352.9    
United Kingdom 41,020.4 41,294.5 42,309.0 46,332.0    
New Zealand 37,896.9 39,505.0 42,308.2 44,342.2    
United Arab Emirates 39,901.2 41,712.1 42,831.1 43,962.7    
Kuwait 47,551.4 50,903.9 48,463.2 43,593.7    
France 43,807.5 40,850.4 42,627.7 42,732.6    
Brunei Darussalam 41,787.0 41,807.7 39,151.2 40,979.6    
Hong Kong SAR, China 35,142.5 36,707.8 38,364.2 40,169.5    
Israel 33,707.3 32,818.9 36,281.2 37,208.0    
Japan 46,203.7 46,679.3 38,633.7 36,194.4    
Italy 38,364.9 34,844.5 35,420.9 34,908.5    
Spain 31,832.2 28,647.8 29,370.7 29,767.4    
Korea, Rep. 24,155.8 24,454.0 25,997.9 27,970.5  

That's per capita, in which case you should have said "the japanese people". Instead, Japan itself was referenced. This was your error, not ours, though I imagine the intent may have been lost in translation.



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Johnw1104 said:

That's per capita, in which case you should have said "the japanese people". Instead, Japan itself was referenced. This was your error, not ours, though I imagine the intent may have been lost in translation.

you never say this country is richer if you mean the entire economy, you say this is more powerful or something like that.



pokoko said:
Ruler said:

maybe in NA it was this way but its because your TV channels wouldnt allow animes to be aired probably because of xenophobia. Everywhere else in the world Anime was big, it always was. 

You just made that up out of thin air, didn't you?  And you think western companies dubbing kid's anime that's set in the west means they were bringing over shoujo or josei?  Even now, fansubbers aren't worried about the kinds of anime you've linked and they never were.  Fansubbing started because no one could get anime that was aimed at an older demographic.  When they could, it was butchered, and people were angry.  I was there, I remember that.

Also, you realize that by showing a handful of western countries are richer than Japan that it means you were wrong about most western countries being richer than Japan, right?  Even if you exclude Latin America, Japan is still richer than most of Europe.  If you include Latin America then it's not even close.

Here is a good article that was written in 2008, before Crunchyroll showed these companies the smart way to make money off anime in the west.

THE FANSUBBING DILEMMA

A Brief History of Fansubbing

Japanese animation began to become visible in America in the late '70s and early '80s. Series like Star Blazers and Speed Racer were the favorites of American distributors who saw animation as an industry targeted primarily to children, nothing more than cartoons. It was rare for a mature, meaningful anime title to make it to American shores, and those that did make it were oftentimes subjected to incredibly bad adaptations that made the Japanese studios wary.

Latin America is not Western. From the list only Italy, Spain, Greece and Portugal have lower GDP per capita than Japan, and no neither i consider Eastern Europe to be Western.

You do realize that shojou or josei didnt exist when these animes i posted were aired  at the time?



Ka-pi96 said:
Ruler said:

 *(in fact most Western countries are richer than Japan)

Saying something is a fact means it should be true. That's not true...

 

As for the rest of the topic. Fan translations aren't necessarily piracy. If they are just patches that still require the original Japanese content to work then not piracy. And as for all the other times (the majority really), well what do you expect? If the Japanese content creators can't be bothered to either release their own translations of things or fight against piracy then it's hardly surprising is it?

You do like its so easy for them from their island to know how everything works in the entire world. They would localize a lot of the stuff if they would know that there is demand. They dont speak english and even their internet traffic is completley different, in differen sites and forums. For a lot of these japanese companys its too risky to rely on foreign opinions in general. Espacially if good stuff is coming from Japanese Companys, a lot of times western fans dont keep up the promise and don buy their stuff.

Some people have suggested they release translated dvds/blurays for anime but that just wouldn't work. Firstly they'd likely use the Japanese pricing model which means no one would buy them. But even if they priced them reasonably it still wouldn't interest many people. They need to use streaming sites like Crunchyroll, earn their revenue either through ads or subscriptions, and release at a similar time to the Japanese originals. Some companies are doing this now, and considering the growth of Crunchyroll and similar sites it looks like it's working.

Whats wrong with the pricing model? Its priced quite fair, these discs have a lower print run than something like Frozen and the resell value is also a lot higher than something from Disney, lets not forget. 



If there was major money being lost, then they would take legal action for their properties. Currently it would cost them more to take legal action.

So by not taking legal action, they are helping themselves. All the fansubs is free marketing unless it becomes huge enough for them to be able to take legal action.



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Ruler said:

Latin America is not Western. From the list only Italy, Spain, Greece and Portugal have lower GDP per capita than Japan, and no neither i consider Eastern Europe to be Western.

You do realize that shojou or josei didnt exist when these animes i posted were aired  at the time?

Latin America is western by many definitions, and I have no idea how you are going to exclude EU member nations.  I get the feeling you're just going to pare it down so that the list fits your argument, which makes this a waste of time.  Also, as has already been pointed out, Japan has the third highest nominal GNP in the world, meaning it has the third largest economy, and it registers fourth in PPP.  If you're talking about the average citizen, Japan ranks 15th in median household income. Trying to make Japan seem poor compared to the west makes no sense at all.

You do realize that fansubbing has very little to do with the old children's anime you linked?




naruball said:
Mnementh said:

You're missing my point. Dragonball and Naruto wouldn't reach Westerners, if fansubs of Animes before them haven't built a fanbase for Anime.

Jesus Christ, dude. Do you listen to youself? Do you realise when DragonBall aired? That was when hardly anyone even used the internet. And I addressed the point that anime like Naruto reached the west thanks to fansubs. Are you even reading anything?

'Harmony Gold USA licensed the series for an English-language release in North America in the late 1980s. In the voice dubbing of the series, Harmony Gold renamed almost all of the characters, including the protagonist Goku, who was renamed "Zero."[3] This dub consisting of 5 episodes and one movie (an 80-minute feature featuring footage of movies 1 and 3 edited together) was cancelled shortly after being test marketed in several US cities and was never broadcast to the general public, thus earning the fan-coined term "The Lost Dub."

In 1995, Funimation acquired the license for the distribution of Dragon Ball in the United States. They contracted Josanne B. Lovick Productions and voice actors from Ocean Productions to create an English version for the anime and first movie in Vancouver, Canada. The dubbed episodes were edited for content,[5] and contained different music. Thirteen episodes aired in first-run syndication during the fall of 1995 before Funimation canceled the project due to low ratings.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball_(anime)#English_localization_and_Broadcasting

So before 2001 Dragonball got no proper broadcast. That's nearly 20 years.

Fansubs started in the early 80s. And funny you mention Internet. Early Anime-fanclubs distributed through copying VHS-tapes. Nothing with Internet.

And some more:

'Throughout this period it was considered socially acceptable to screen anime for an audience without consent as few companies had American offices, and of the few that did, the answer was invariably "no". Japanese companies made it apparent that they knew fans in the United States engaged in unauthorized distribution and screening, however knew that fans were not profiting. Japanese companies asked fans to help them publicize, for instance Toei Animation asked the C/FO to aid them with some marketing research at San Diego Comic-Con. Starting in 1978 Japanese companies tried to set up US branches, however with the exception of one movie, The Sea Prince and the Fire Child licensed to RSA/Columbia Pictures Home Video, realized they were not going to succeed in the US market and the last anime company branch closed in 1982.[2]'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fansub#History



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Ruler said:

 

 

pokoko said:
Do you know why anime is big in the west now? Fansubs. I was there back then, trading VHS tapes on the internet because Japanese companies wouldn't bring over anything over except Sailor Moon, Pokemon, and some horribly butchered versions of a few other titles with supposed mass appeal. They said there was no interest in the west in anything else. I had to trade for tapes of Hana Yori Dango that were recorded from television. I had to look everywhere for someone subbing Kodocha.
 

ehh no

and there are many many other animes from the 70-90s localized in the west

Most of these examples are western productions that ordered the animation from japan. And yes, europe did that. That is comparable to that todays Anime often are animated oin Korea these days - they are still japanese productions. Anime usually refers to stuff produced for the japanese market. I'm not sure that the examples you shown there even aired in Japan, they weren't localized as their production language was one or another european language.



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Mnementh said:
naruball said:

Jesus Christ, dude. Do you listen to youself? Do you realise when DragonBall aired? That was when hardly anyone even used the internet. And I addressed the point that anime like Naruto reached the west thanks to fansubs. Are you even reading anything?

'Harmony Gold USA licensed the series for an English-language release in North America in the late 1980s. In the voice dubbing of the series, Harmony Gold renamed almost all of the characters, including the protagonist Goku, who was renamed "Zero."[3] This dub consisting of 5 episodes and one movie (an 80-minute feature featuring footage of movies 1 and 3 edited together) was cancelled shortly after being test marketed in several US cities and was never broadcast to the general public, thus earning the fan-coined term "The Lost Dub."

In 1995, Funimation acquired the license for the distribution of Dragon Ball in the United States. They contracted Josanne B. Lovick Productions and voice actors from Ocean Productions to create an English version for the anime and first movie in Vancouver, Canada. The dubbed episodes were edited for content,[5] and contained different music. Thirteen episodes aired in first-run syndication during the fall of 1995 before Funimation canceled the project due to low ratings.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball_(anime)#English_localization_and_Broadcasting

So before 2001 Dragonball got no proper broadcast. That's nearly 20 years.

Fansubs started in the early 80s. And funny you mention Internet. Early Anime-fanclubs distributed through copying VHS-tapes. Nothing with Internet.

And some more:

'Throughout this period it was considered socially acceptable to screen anime for an audience without consent as few companies had American offices, and of the few that did, the answer was invariably "no". Japanese companies made it apparent that they knew fans in the United States engaged in unauthorized distribution and screening, however knew that fans were not profiting. Japanese companies asked fans to help them publicize, for instance Toei Animation asked the C/FO to aid them with some marketing research at San Diego Comic-Con. Starting in 1978 Japanese companies tried to set up US branches, however with the exception of one movie, The Sea Prince and the Fire Child licensed to RSA/Columbia Pictures Home Video, realized they were not going to succeed in the US market and the last anime company branch closed in 1982.[2]'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fansub#History

Once again America =/ world

I'm 30 now and when I was 10 Dragon Ball (dubbed) and Sailor Moon (dubbed) were pretty much all kids my age used to watch. DragonBall was huge around the world and it was most certainly not thanks to fansubs. It was the dubbed versions that most kids were exposed to.



naruball said:
Mnementh said:

'Harmony Gold USA licensed the series for an English-language release in North America in the late 1980s. In the voice dubbing of the series, Harmony Gold renamed almost all of the characters, including the protagonist Goku, who was renamed "Zero."[3] This dub consisting of 5 episodes and one movie (an 80-minute feature featuring footage of movies 1 and 3 edited together) was cancelled shortly after being test marketed in several US cities and was never broadcast to the general public, thus earning the fan-coined term "The Lost Dub."

In 1995, Funimation acquired the license for the distribution of Dragon Ball in the United States. They contracted Josanne B. Lovick Productions and voice actors from Ocean Productions to create an English version for the anime and first movie in Vancouver, Canada. The dubbed episodes were edited for content,[5] and contained different music. Thirteen episodes aired in first-run syndication during the fall of 1995 before Funimation canceled the project due to low ratings.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball_(anime)#English_localization_and_Broadcasting

So before 2001 Dragonball got no proper broadcast. That's nearly 20 years.

Fansubs started in the early 80s. And funny you mention Internet. Early Anime-fanclubs distributed through copying VHS-tapes. Nothing with Internet.

And some more:

'Throughout this period it was considered socially acceptable to screen anime for an audience without consent as few companies had American offices, and of the few that did, the answer was invariably "no". Japanese companies made it apparent that they knew fans in the United States engaged in unauthorized distribution and screening, however knew that fans were not profiting. Japanese companies asked fans to help them publicize, for instance Toei Animation asked the C/FO to aid them with some marketing research at San Diego Comic-Con. Starting in 1978 Japanese companies tried to set up US branches, however with the exception of one movie, The Sea Prince and the Fire Child licensed to RSA/Columbia Pictures Home Video, realized they were not going to succeed in the US market and the last anime company branch closed in 1982.[2]'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fansub#History

Once again America =/ world

I'm 30 now and when I was 10 Dragon Ball (dubbed) and Sailor Moon (dubbed) were pretty much all kids my age used to watch. DragonBall was huge around the world and it was most certainly not thanks to fansubs. It was the dubbed versions that most kids were exposed to.

Sorry, I'm german. In germany Dragonball was aired first 1999, thirteen years after japanese release:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball_(Anime)

Maybe you get it wrong because you're young (you're profile says you are ten years younger than me), but I can assure you that most Anime weren't available here in germany until around 2000. I remember that Akira was nearly the first serious Anime-production that got an release in europe. Three years later. It was because it was shown on the Berlinale. But still it was a unicorn back then, Anime was pretty unusual to be shown in germany and I assume in most of europe. That changed very slowly.

You may have seen a dubbed Dragonball in TV at a young age - but at that time the series was already more than ten years old. In all that time in the 80s the fansub-scene already existed by exchanging video-tapes - no internet needed.



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10 years greatest game event!

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