You'd think there would be more pressing matters for the UN to fail at attempting to solve.
| Stellar_Fungk said: Yes, ban them so the salt can flow from thousands of weeabo fans. |
But what will we do with all that salt?
Now, Kumiko Yamada, representative of the Japanese wing of the Women’s Institute Of Contemporary Media Culture has responded to this, and she had quite a bit to say regarding the subject.
Her response (Editor’s Note: first translated by reddit user RyanoftheStars; we’ve verified the translation’s accuracy) can be found below:
We are absolutely in agreement that the protection of the rights of women in Japan is important. On the other hand, we think it should be carefully and seriously evaluated whether the measures taken to ensure those protections are valid ones or not. If we are asked to consider whether “Protecting Women’s Rights in Japan” requires us to “Ban the Sale of Manga and Video Games Depicting Sexual Violence,” then we must reply that that is an absolute “no.”
Reasons for Our Opinion:
Reason #1 – The so-called sexual violence in manga and video games is a made-up thing and as such does not threaten the rights of actual people; therefore, it is meaningless in protecting the rights of women.
Reason #2 – In Japan, and especially when it comes to manga, these are creative fields that women themselves cultivated and worked hard by their own hand to create careers for themselves. If we were to “ban the sale of manga that includes sexual violence,” it would do the opposite and instead create a new avenue of sexism toward women.
Detailed Explanation of Reasons:
About Reason #1 – It goes without saying that the rape and other crimes of actual real people who experience sexual acts from partners without consent is an actual violation of their rights concerning sexual violence and should obviously be forbidden by law, and that it’s necessary to protect and support victims. However, the figures in manga and video games are creative fictions that do not actually exist, and thus this is not a violation of any real person’s human rights. We should focus on attacking the problems that affect real women’s human rights as quickly as possible.
About Reason #2 – In Japan, and especially when it comes to manga, these are creative fields that women themselves cultivated and worked hard by their own hand to create careers for themselves.Already in the 70s there were women-focused manga magazines and many talented women manga writers came from them.In this way, before the Equal Opportunity Employment Act for Men and Women passed in 1986, there was already a space where women flourished and had established the “shoujo manga” genre. And of course, within women’s manga, sometimes the topic was of romance and sex […] In this way, it can be predicted that if we were to ban the sale of “manga that depicts sexual violence,” a great deal of publishers would cease publication of a huge amount of works. In the creative field of manga, the effect would be that women who have worked so hard to create a place for vibrant careers would have that place shrink right in front of them, as well as have their efforts negated. In addition, if we were to put ourselves in the places of manga readers the chance to know about the history of the sexual exploitation of women would be lost and method for them to come to know about it. If the creative fields of manga were attacked, trampled on and destroyed with such prejudice, it would damage not only the women manga writers, but also spread to other women creators in the field, as well as the female readers. This would be a sexist punishment that only narrows the career possibilities of Japan’s women
[…]
Conclusion:
As stated above, we cannot say that banning the sale of manga and video games that “depict sexual violence” is valid, even if we were to agree that the goal of protecting the rights of women is correct.
There is nothing to be gained from regulating fictional sexual violence. However, while you’re trying to fix the rights of fictional characters, you’re leaving the human rights of real women in the real world left to rot. As well, in Japan, the entire reason we have a media genre such as manga that developed to take on themes such as the sexual exploitation of women came from an attitude to tolerate “drinking the pure and the dirty without prejudice.” It’s because we had the freedom to express our views and with that to express the view of a world of humans that live and die, that there are pure and wonderful things and dirty and nasty things mixed with each other.
Manga is a field where women have put in their hard work and effort to cut forward paths and cultivate a place of their own. We believe that in order to protect this place from being trampled on, it will need our continued hard work to pass it on to the next generation, and it is this effort that will link to the greater freedom and rights of women.
You can have your feminist bullshi*t everywhere in the world, but dont bring it to japan. DONT MESS WITH MUH JAPAN
| Roronaa_chan said: Now, Kumiko Yamada, representative of the Japanese wing of the Women’s Institute Of Contemporary Media Culture has responded to this, and she had quite a bit to say regarding the subject.
Her response (Editor’s Note: first translated by reddit user RyanoftheStars; we’ve verified the translation’s accuracy) can be found below:
We are absolutely in agreement that the protection of the rights of women in Japan is important. On the other hand, we think it should be carefully and seriously evaluated whether the measures taken to ensure those protections are valid ones or not. If we are asked to consider whether “Protecting Women’s Rights in Japan” requires us to “Ban the Sale of Manga and Video Games Depicting Sexual Violence,” then we must reply that that is an absolute “no.”
Reasons for Our Opinion:
Reason #1 – The so-called sexual violence in manga and video games is a made-up thing and as such does not threaten the rights of actual people; therefore, it is meaningless in protecting the rights of women. Reason #2 – In Japan, and especially when it comes to manga, these are creative fields that women themselves cultivated and worked hard by their own hand to create careers for themselves. If we were to “ban the sale of manga that includes sexual violence,” it would do the opposite and instead create a new avenue of sexism toward women.
Detailed Explanation of Reasons:
About Reason #1 – It goes without saying that the rape and other crimes of actual real people who experience sexual acts from partners without consent is an actual violation of their rights concerning sexual violence and should obviously be forbidden by law, and that it’s necessary to protect and support victims. However, the figures in manga and video games are creative fictions that do not actually exist, and thus this is not a violation of any real person’s human rights. We should focus on attacking the problems that affect real women’s human rights as quickly as possible.
About Reason #2 – In Japan, and especially when it comes to manga, these are creative fields that women themselves cultivated and worked hard by their own hand to create careers for themselves.Already in the 70s there were women-focused manga magazines and many talented women manga writers came from them.In this way, before the Equal Opportunity Employment Act for Men and Women passed in 1986, there was already a space where women flourished and had established the “shoujo manga” genre. And of course, within women’s manga, sometimes the topic was of romance and sex […] In this way, it can be predicted that if we were to ban the sale of “manga that depicts sexual violence,” a great deal of publishers would cease publication of a huge amount of works. In the creative field of manga, the effect would be that women who have worked so hard to create a place for vibrant careers would have that place shrink right in front of them, as well as have their efforts negated. In addition, if we were to put ourselves in the places of manga readers the chance to know about the history of the sexual exploitation of women would be lost and method for them to come to know about it. If the creative fields of manga were attacked, trampled on and destroyed with such prejudice, it would damage not only the women manga writers, but also spread to other women creators in the field, as well as the female readers. This would be a sexist punishment that only narrows the career possibilities of Japan’s women
[…] Conclusion:
As stated above, we cannot say that banning the sale of manga and video games that “depict sexual violence” is valid, even if we were to agree that the goal of protecting the rights of women is correct.
There is nothing to be gained from regulating fictional sexual violence. However, while you’re trying to fix the rights of fictional characters, you’re leaving the human rights of real women in the real world left to rot. As well, in Japan, the entire reason we have a media genre such as manga that developed to take on themes such as the sexual exploitation of women came from an attitude to tolerate “drinking the pure and the dirty without prejudice.” It’s because we had the freedom to express our views and with that to express the view of a world of humans that live and die, that there are pure and wonderful things and dirty and nasty things mixed with each other.
Manga is a field where women have put in their hard work and effort to cut forward paths and cultivate a place of their own. We believe that in order to protect this place from being trampled on, it will need our continued hard work to pass it on to the next generation, and it is this effort that will link to the greater freedom and rights of women.
|
The argument of "leaving women to rot" in the real world because you are removing an aspect of their work is a bit exaggerated. All they literally have to do is refrain from publishing material that contains sexual violence. Sexuality is still allowed; it's the rape that isn't. That's a small adaptation to make. She argues that a crap-ton of women are going to lose their jobs because of this? Sob story. Like I said, all they have to do is adapt. There is still a huge pornographic market that will buy their material sans-rape.
Under Canada’s Criminal Code: (R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 163; 1993, c. 46, s. 1.) , it is stated that any publication containing the undue exploitation of sex and/or crime, horror, cruelty and violence shall be deemed obscene and is thus illegal. The same goes for many other countries' criminal code. The production and sale of such material in Japan is being justified because of certain articles of the Japanese Constitution - namely Article 21 which guarantees freedom of expression and prohibits censorship. However, these arguments are taking the constitution out of context IMO. They were originally put into place to limit the oppression of any individual who spoke up against the government, not allow for an artist to produce anything under the sun without censorship.
And Reason #1 is can be contested. There is a suggestive correlation between viewing material containing sexual violence and producing a psychic desire to inflict the same sexual violence against vulnerable individuals. It isn't as cut and dry as ("oh well they don't exist and we can tell"), especially not when you associate the viewing with pleasure. The argument of the rape rate decreasing is not a valid argument to use either, before anyone pulls that. It rapidly decreased from 1972 - when results became public - to 1983. The spread of pornographic home videos started in the mid 1980s. Since then, the rape rate gradually ceased and then increased by 67% from 1996 to 2003. From 1986 to 2003, the rate of forced obscenity increased by 338%.
FURTHERMORE, in a statement from the United States Department of Justice in 1986:
"In both clinical and experimental settings, exposure to sexually violent materials has indicated an increase in the likelyhood of aggression. More specifically, the research shows a casual relationship between exposure to this type of material and agressive beahvior towards women. In conclusion, substantial exposure to materials of this type bears some casual relationship to the level of sexual violence, coercion or unwanted sexual aggression in the population so exposed"
If you need any more arguments I am ready and able to give them.
With help from
Shibata, T. (2008). Undoing Sexual Objectification in the Japanese Socio‐Juridical Context: The Human‐Rights‐Oriented Transmutation of the Conception of “Obscene” Material. International Journal of Japanese Sociology, 17(1), 114-128.
#1 Amb-ass-ador
| Ka-pi96 said: Good for Japan. It really is quite laughable that some people are so fussed about fictional women when there are real women with much larger problems still. |
What's laughable is gamers under the assumption that the UN are a bunch of mean baddies when they threatened rape games. Not only are they justified in at least investigating it, they are also looking at a lot more than that in Japan, and they are most certainly heavily focused on real problems involving real women. This situation affects real women and they are most certainly focused on other issues such as FGM in other areas. This was brought to your attention because it is gaming related. Otherwise it would fly over 99% of this site's radar - don't fool yourself.
Saying that as you did is a dismissal of that which is a real problem. If the sale of such material had no effects, than a panel of worldwide human rights experts would have no reason to discuss it. It's absurd to think that the UN is laughable when they are completely justified in this investigation, and likely have a combined experience in this subject matter that trumps the entirety of the gaming population's combined. I went as far as outlining a few of the problems associated with the legal sale of sexual violence in the media, and to be quite frank I think a lot of you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
This isn't the banning of pornographic video games, it is the banning of sexual violence in video games. You guys oughtta trust the UN more than you do right now. You would rather accept the words of a site like nichegamer than that of the UN? I don't know man.
#1 Amb-ass-ador
Ka-pi96 said:
The UN are laughable for a whole lot more than that, and no they ought to not be trusted at all! |
Tbh I'm tired and can't tell if you are serious or not. If you are serious then god bless you.
Do you have any questions about the matter that I may be able to answer, in light of nichegamer's one-sided view?
#1 Amb-ass-ador
| ReimTime said: The argument of "leaving women to rot" in the real world because you are removing an aspect of their work is a bit exaggerated. All they literally have to do is refrain from publishing material that contains sexual violence. Sexuality is still allowed; it's the rape that isn't. That's a small adaptation to make. She argues that a crap-ton of women are going to lose their jobs because of this? Sob story. Like I said, all they have to do is adapt. There is still a huge pornographic market that will buy their material sans-rape. Under Canada’s Criminal Code: (R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 163; 1993, c. 46, s. 1.) , it is stated that any publication containing the undue exploitation of sex and/or crime, horror, cruelty and violence shall be deemed obscene and is thus illegal. The same goes for many other countries' criminal code. The production and sale of such material in Japan is being justified because of certain articles of the Japanese Constitution - namely Article 21 which guarantees freedom of expression and prohibits censorship. However, these arguments are taking the constitution out of context IMO. They were originally put into place to limit the oppression of any individual who spoke up against the government, not allow for an artist to produce anything under the sun without censorship. And Reason #1 is can be contested. There is a suggestive correlation between viewing material containing sexual violence and producing a psychic desire to inflict the same sexual violence against vulnerable individuals. It isn't as cut and dry as ("oh well they don't exist and we can tell"), especially not when you associate the viewing with pleasure. The argument of the rape rate decreasing is not a valid argument to use either, before anyone pulls that. It rapidly decreased from 1972 - when results became public - to 1983. The spread of pornographic home videos started in the mid 1980s. Since then, the rape rate gradually ceased and then increased by 67% from 1996 to 2003. From 1986 to 2003, the rate of forced obscenity increased by 338%. FURTHERMORE, in a statement from the United States Department of Justice in 1986: "In both clinical and experimental settings, exposure to sexually violent materials has indicated an increase in the likelyhood of aggression. More specifically, the research shows a casual relationship between exposure to this type of material and agressive beahvior towards women. In conclusion, substantial exposure to materials of this type bears some casual relationship to the level of sexual violence, coercion or unwanted sexual aggression in the population so exposed" If you need any more arguments I am ready and able to give them. With help from Shibata, T. (2008). Undoing Sexual Objectification in the Japanese Socio‐Juridical Context: The Human‐Rights‐Oriented Transmutation of the Conception of “Obscene” Material. International Journal of Japanese Sociology, 17(1), 114-128. |
Leaving women to rot doesn't refer to the women mentioned as working in these kind of works, just female victims over the world in general. The ones who work on this are a separate matter, even if they can indeed be seen as a bonus group.
Canada's Criminal Code should be revised because not only is it backwards it's also constantly being broken by western media.
"She argues that a crap-ton of women are going to lose their jobs because of this? Sob story. Like I said, all they have to do is adapt. There is still a huge pornographic market that will buy their material sans-rape. "
How wonderful, it's fine for them to lose their creative/artistic job because they can just go ahead and suck real dick for a living. That does sound in line with the same kind of backwards thinking behind half the laws regulating sexual subjects (which I'd know, as I majored in European Law, even if my area of expertise is Consumer Law)
As for the statement from the DoJ, "casual relationship" is, as usual, just another replacement for "we don't actually know but don't want to say otherwise". Statements lacking assertiveness might as well be printed and used as toilet paper, such is its usefulness or power to convince. On the other hand it does make me question if the women making these things are also sexually violent towards other women or men; maybe we'll find out once they lose their jobs and "go do other pornographic things" like you said.
Roronaa_chan said:
Leaving women to rot doesn't refer to the women mentioned as working in these kind of works, just female victims over the world in general. The ones who work on this are a separate matter, even if they can indeed be seen as a bonus group. Canada's Criminal Code should be revised because not only is it backwards it's also constantly being broken by western media. "She argues that a crap-ton of women are going to lose their jobs because of this? Sob story. Like I said, all they have to do is adapt. There is still a huge pornographic market that will buy their material sans-rape. " How wonderful, it's fine for them to lose their creative/artistic job because they can just go ahead and suck real dick for a living. That does sound in line with the same kind of backwards thinking behind half the laws regulating sexual subjects. As for the statement from the DoJ, "casual relationship" is, as usual, just another replacement for "we don't actually know but don't want to say otherwise". Statements lacking assertiveness might as well be printed and used as toilet paper, such is its usefulness or power to convince. On the other hand it does make me question if the women making these things are also sexually violent towards other women or men; maybe we'll find out once they lose their jobs and "go do other pornographic things" like you said. |
If you choose to back it up so be it. I didn't expect to convince many people, just hoped to provide the whole story behind the situation. Why so many people who don't even live in Japan are so concerned about sexually violent games being sold there is beyond me. You'll still get to consume porography to your heart's content; just not as much containing sexual violence. How is that a bad thing?
Ah, oh well. Thank you for providing your stance. I'm sorry you feel that way about the laws concerning sexual violence. Hopefully they can improve them - I agree there are still too many sexual crimes happening. We do need to get tougher on them.
WTF is that jump to suggesting they can go suck dicks for a living if they lose their jobs lmao k den :-| what I said is that they can still draw manga etc that doesn't include rape. There is still a huge market for that. Kek nice conclusion
Jesus Christ dude, you make claims like that yet your entire argument could be printed and used as toilet paper. What kind of proof do you have other than the news article of a gaming website? You can't claim the DoJ know nothing when they have done all the research, and you have no grounds to leverage your argument over theirs - not to mention the work of many other respectable and well-educated individuals.
Like I said I knew I wouldn't change many of your minds because I know you are near-deadset. But I really wish I could. You aren't as threatened as you make yourselves out to be. Please at least consider where the UN may be coming from.
The fact that people are so untrustworthy and threatened by legitimate feminist movements is very very frustrating to me. People aren't just pooped into CEDAW from Tumblr. They have educations. They do research. They are experts. We are users on a video game forum, some of us whom are biased because we like consuming sexually violent material. And we disagree based upon the words of a website that only publishes proceedings that suit our interest.
I truly hope the UN comes to a good conclusion on March 7th. That's what I'll end with
#1 Amb-ass-ador
I don't really understand, to be honest. Why is it this one particular thing? Why not ban anything that contains any depiction of anything illegal at all? We're being told that simply have a correlation is the same as causation, right? Then anything else that shows any correlation to anything illegal at all should be on the chopping block.
Isn't that a logical extension of this?
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