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Forums - Politics Discussion - Bernie Sanders confuses me

fatslob-:O on 10 February 2016
Wyrdness said:

Getting a few quid more then someone on minimum wage isn't anything to write home about and many of them would go to better colleges if the had access to them, only 40%? That's less than I expected.

A guy on minimum wage for 40 hours a week will get an annual salary of $15,080 and you don't get much room for raises or promotions either ... 

The lowest paid doctors has an hourly wage of $73 per hour while they work for 50 hours a week which nets them $189,000 ... 

A starting engineer gets just over $60,000 on their first year for working 40 hours a week with an hourly wage of $29 per hour ... 

Recent graduates with business degrees like finance, economics, accounting, etc will make a starting annual salary of around $50,000 ... 

All three good options could also relatively easily get you in the top 10% of the income earner's in US compared to the crap that menial low wage workers deal with. These wages really put a perspective on who's worth what in the market ...

If you seem to think that hard work is does not pay off in capitalism then be my guest as I think we may as well just agree to disagree ... 

Wyrdness said:

Greece has so many people participating in that dodgy area because the government let it, the politicians and the rich are the worst offenders. In the USA do you honestly think the government would allow it to even get half as bad as that? There would be action long before that road is even in sight in fact the whole offshore issue being tackled now is part of it, vast amounts of Americans aren't dodging tax like in Greece so taxing the rich is a legitimate means to balance the budget whether some like it or not.

The root of Greece's problems don't lie in the government or the rich. When over 30% it's citizens are conducting tax evasion it's pretty clear that they will stop the Greek government in it's own tracks from doing any sort of tax reforms since they hold a lot of sway ... 

Greece could be on the brink of a civil war for all I know and is a potential example of modern democracy gone wrong ...

"A kingdom is only as strong as it's people are" ...



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fatslob-:O on 10 February 2016
MoscowPuzzles said:

Tax avoidance / evasion is a criminal offense. This is not the same as exploiting a loophole, which is just smart. In tax evasion, assets can and will be seized legally.

Tax avoidance isn't a criminal offense but tax evasion is ... 

BIG difference between the two ...



Jimbo1337 on 10 February 2016
Soundwave said:
Jimbo1337 said:

No it wasn't changed.  Obama promised us that if we like our doctor, then we could keep our doctor.  That if we like our healthcare plan, we can keep our healthcare plan.

Do you wanna know what happened to all of us?  Our premiums doubled and they will continue to go up!  Our deductibles shot up to about 5000 dollars, which basically means you have to get hit by a car before the insurance company will even pay one cent.

So yeah, the American people aren't happy with a $600 premium and a $5000 deductible.  Not to mention that if you used to see a M.D., then tough luck.  Under Obamacare he didn't think it was right that the middle class got better healthcare than the poor.  So now the middle class get worse healthcare and spend more money.  When Obama was interviewed, Obamacare was brought up and he said that we should not focus on the fumbles.  I am sorry Mr. President, but our healthcare shouldn't be played around with like some football game.  

You can correct me if I am wrong, but there were some things in Obamacare that were pushed back because everyone realized how much he screwed up our healthcare.  So we all talk about how much it is messed up now under Obama but the true disaster is going to happen after he leaves.  Great timing Obama!  That way it wont look so bad while you are President!  You can't blame this one on Bush because you named it after yourself!

So out of all of this what does Obama cling to?  That now some 11 million people without healthcare now have healthcare.  Congratulations Obama!  My hamster could come up with a better plan by giving to more people and save money for everyone.  You wanna know what quesiton I want to ask Obama?  How many of those 11 million people are acutally USING their healthcare?!  Or are all of the American people just bleeding money for nothing!  I bet we could have just given money out of our own pockets to these poor people and saved a ton of money and got rid of the middle man (insurance companies).  But you know, I guess the democrats loved Obama so much that they just wanted to give more money to the top 1% (insurance companies) but now they vote for Sanders.  I guess the democrats really didn't know what they were voting for when they voted for Obama.  Now your average american, like a janitor in a school, is bleeding money out of his nose.  Just wait until the Cadillac Tax rolls around.  Then we will all feel a fork in our side.  Thanks Obama..you know...the guy who thinks he knows everything but who is a complete and utter dumbass

lol, you think insurance companies can just be "cut out" of the equation. It's a nice fantasy. 

Typically when you put things in quotation marks, it symbolizes something that someone actually said.  Nowhere in my previous post did I mention "cut out".  Also, nice try at twisting my message.  



Wyrdness on 10 February 2016
fatslob-:O said:

A guy on minimum wage for 40 hours a week will get an annual salary of $15,080 and you don't get much room for raises or promotions either ... 

The lowest paid doctors has an hourly wage of $73 per hour while they work for 50 hours a week which nets them $189,000 ... 

A starting engineer gets just over $60,000 on their first year for working 40 hours a week with an hourly wage of $29 per hour ... 

Recent graduates with business degrees like finance, economics, accounting, etc will make a starting annual salary of around $50,000 ... 

All three good options could also relatively easily get you in the top 10% of the income earner's in US compared to the crap that menial low wage workers deal with. These wages really put a perspective on who's worth what in the market ...

If you seem to think that hard work is does not pay off in capitalism then be my guest as I think we may as well just agree to disagree ... 

The root of Greece's problems don't lie in the government or the rich. When over 30% it's citizens are conducting tax evasion it's pretty clear that they will stop the Greek government in it's own tracks from doing any sort of tax reforms since they hold a lot of sway ... 

Greece could be on the brink of a civil war for all I know and is a potential example of modern democracy gone wrong ...

"A kingdom is only as strong as it's people are" ...

Except recent graduates don't get those jobs, I know people who did courses in finance and so on, those who had connections had a far easier time getting better jobs than the former.

The root of the problem is the government, they've added measures now to up the collections and begin shutting down avenues for evasion, this could have been done long ago but guess who was benefitting from it the most? The rich and politicians, politicians themselves reffered to and treated tax evasion like a sport, the population can't stop tax reforms by the way because all of that is voted and handled by the Parliament not the local people.



Jimbo1337 on 10 February 2016
the-pi-guy said:
Jimbo1337 said:

So does that mean he is going to increase taxes on the poor to give them healthcare as well?

Anybody with a brain the size of a plant could come up with a better healthcare plan to save the American people money without increasing taxes.  That's how bad Obamacare truly is and it will only get worse.

The middle class, and the upper class have more money for luxuries.  Whereas the lower class doesn't have so much for luxuries, like health care. 

 

2 things to keep in mind:

Andorra, Antigua, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Canada, Chile, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Kuwait, Luxembourg, Moldova, Mongolia, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Oman, Panama, Portugal, Romania, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Thailand, Tunisia, UAE, Ukraine, United Kingdom, Venezuela.  All have universal healthcare.  We spend more on healthcare than any of them, as a percentage of GDP, and per capita.  A big reason is because we don't have this system (to their extent).  We spend 2600$ per person more than the second highest.

We also have a system for health care in place.  It's just limited to people over 65. 

 

The hope of the system is to raise taxes, and eliminate other health care costs.  Basically spend 1000$ more in taxes, to save 2000$ on health care.I have family members that work in healthcare that have told me that such a system would absolutely save money.  It's actually a lot of work, and a lot of expenses actually go towards having multiple insurances.  Having this new system would eliminate those costs.

 

Bernie Sanders is not proposing Obamacare, he is pushing us towards that European system. 

With healthcare funding, we have to have some kind of money coming from somewhere to make it happen.  That means cutting somewhere else or raising taxes.  Cutting is complicated and perhaps it could be done.  It's complicated because what do you cut?  The military?  The roads?  Etc. 

You see here is something that you may or may not know.  Obama promised the American people the same exact thing.  He said that he was going to raise taxes but we in the end would save money in healthcare.  What did the American people get?  Increased taxes and DOUBLED premiums with a god damn deductible of 5 or 6 THOUSAND!  Side Note: They expected 44% more people to be signed up on Obamacare at this current moment in time. Goes to show how terrible Obamacare actually is.

Five million Americans were kicked off of the private health plans they had chosen because those plans did not meet the "minimal essential coverage" deemed satisfactory to Washington -- coverage that required them to pay for things like marriage therapy and acupuncture, whether they wanted them or not.  Instead of giving the American people more healthcare options, Obamacare offered 21% fewer plans than did the pre-ACA individual market.  Obamacare is elimintating access to the best care and hospitals.  The government imposes a Medicaid system whose payment structure is so low that doctors cannot afford to participate.  So now these people on Medicaid have access to fewer doctors and have long wait times (sometimes life-threating) to see the healthcare that remains.  Obama has created a system where only the insurance companies are the only beneficiaries.  A healthcare system where the American people get less choices in healthcare plans and get less choices on which doctor they can see.  Insurance companies are making the people pay higher costs and slowly giving providers less and less money.  They don't care about the people's health.  They want to spend the least amount of money on these sick people. 

So excuse me if I don't trust our government or any Democratic candidate handling our healthcare.  Obama lied to every god damn American and he called it a fumble.  A god damn fumble.  Whoops...I am sorry you got kicked off your healthcare plan.  Oh you can't pay for it now?  I guess you will have to die.  Thanks Obama.

So what is going on right now when you get hired.  Let me give you an example...

Hey bob, my name is Walmart and we want to hire you for X amount of hours.  We have a healthcare plan that we give to our employees at the cost of Y amount but we will only pay for 50% of it.  Oh wait, you can't pay for the other 50%?  What does Walmart end up doing?  They check the box that you don't have health coverage because the god damn premiums are so high for your average Bob to pay for it.  So now Bob has no healthcare.  Poor Bob

Or how about Joe the farmer who has 50 employees working for him?  The government says that you are now classified as a large business and have to provide group healthcare coverage.  But you and I both know that Joe the farmer doesn't have that type of overhead and cant possibly spend some $30,000 dollars a month to cover all of his employees.  



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SamuelRSmith on 10 February 2016
Teeqoz said:

That is ironic because that is the very first point adressed in my link. Bernie seems like pretty much the only one interested in closing the tax loopholes...

That's not true, several candidates support closing tax loopholes. Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Carly Fiorina. Dropped out candidates like Rand Paul, and Mike Huckabee.



Teeqoz on 10 February 2016
SamuelRSmith said:
Teeqoz said:

That is ironic because that is the very first point adressed in my link. Bernie seems like pretty much the only one interested in closing the tax loopholes...

That's not true, several candidates support closing tax loopholes. Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Carly Fiorina. Dropped out candidates like Rand Paul, and Mike Huckabee.

That's great to hear. Probably one of the easiest ways to increase tax revenues, and companies really shouldn't be allowed hide their cash from the IRS and avoid paying taxes on them.

 

I still found it ironic how the one I replied brought up exactly that though, when that was the very first thing adressed in the link I gave. Apologies for my misstatement though.



SamuelRSmith on 10 February 2016
Teeqoz said:

That's great to hear. Probably one of the easiest ways to increase tax revenues, and companies really shouldn't be allowed hide their cash from the IRS and avoid paying taxes on them.

I still found it ironic how the one I replied brought up exactly that though, when that was the very first thing adressed in the link I gave. Apologies for my misstatement though.

The candidates I listed don't want to close loopholes to increase revenues. They want to close loopholes to lower rates.



Jimbo1337 on 10 February 2016
the-pi-guy said:
Jimbo1337 said:

You see here is something that you may or may not know.  Obama promised the American people the same exact thing.  He said that he was going to raise taxes but we in the end would save money in healthcare.  What did the American people get?  Increased taxes and DOUBLED premiums with a god damn deductible of 5 or 6 THOUSAND!  Side Note: They expected 44% more people to be signed up on Obamacare at this current moment in time. Goes to show how terrible Obamacare actually is.

Five million Americans were kicked off of the private health plans they had chosen because those plans did not meet the "minimal essential coverage" deemed satisfactory to Washington -- coverage that required them to pay for things like marriage therapy and acupuncture, whether they wanted them or not.  Instead of giving the American people more healthcare options, Obamacare offered 21% fewer plans than did the pre-ACA individual market.  Obamacare is elimintating access to the best care and hospitals.  The government imposes a Medicaid system whose payment structure is so low that doctors cannot afford to participate.  So now these people on Medicaid have access to fewer doctors and have long wait times (sometimes life-threating) to see the healthcare that remains.  Obama has created a system where only the insurance companies are the only beneficiaries.  A healthcare system where the American people get less choices in healthcare plans and get less choices on which doctor they can see.  Insurance companies are making the people pay higher costs and slowly giving providers less and less money.  They don't care about the people's health.  They want to spend the least amount of money on these sick people. 

So excuse me if I don't trust our government or any Democratic candidate handling our healthcare.  Obama lied to every god damn American and he called it a fumble.  A god damn fumble.  Whoops...I am sorry you got kicked off your healthcare plan.  Oh you can't pay for it now?  I guess you will have to die.  Thanks Obama.

So what is going on right now when you get hired.  Let me give you an example...

Hey bob, my name is Walmart and we want to hire you for X amount of hours.  We have a healthcare plan that we give to our employees at the cost of Y amount but we will only pay for 50% of it.  Oh wait, you can't pay for the other 50%?  What does Walmart end up doing?  They check the box that you don't have health coverage because the god damn premiums are so high for your average Bob to pay for it.  So now Bob has no healthcare.  Poor Bob

Or how about Joe the farmer who has 50 employees working for him?  The government says that you are now classified as a large business and have to provide group healthcare coverage.  But you and I both know that Joe the farmer doesn't have that type of overhead and cant possibly spend some $30,000 dollars a month to cover all of his employees.  

Obamacare is not what those other things are.  It's completely different, and I said for a long time that it wasn't what we needed. 

I don't care about Obamacare, Sanders is looking for a different program.  The one that is used successfully in Europe, and all those other countries.  The countries that spend way less than we do. 

 

Yeah, that's not what Sanders is pushing for at all. 

What Sanders wants to do is get rid of private health care.  That Walmart example just shows you don't understand it at all. 

Employers don't give healthcare, under Sanders the government would give healthcare.  This means it gets taken out of your taxes just like the military and everything else.  Do you get employed and asked, yeah we're going to take 30% out for the military?  You certainly don't. 

 

You're trying to imply that the Sander's health care is an extension of Obamacare.  That is incredibly far from the truth. 

Please go back and read my post and count the number of times that I said Sanders.  Please go back and read this key sentence: "So what is going on RIGHT NOW when you get hired.  Let me give you an example:"  

Do you understand what "right now" means?  Apparently not.  I mentioned Sanders name ZERO times.  I was talking about how much Obamacare has failed and how I don't trust another Democratic candidate who thinks that government controlled healthcare is a good thing.  We have seen it destroy our healthcare system once, and I don't need another four or god forbid eight years of this mess.  It should be back in the hands of the people to decide what healthcare they want and not what the government wants.  

You can sit there and say that any healthcare system in any other country is cheaper than ours under Obamacare.  Is that supposed to be an accomplishment?

 The Sanders defense team is out and I am over here attacking Obama....



fatslob-:O on 10 February 2016
Wyrdness said:

Except recent graduates don't get those jobs, I know people who did courses in finance and so on, those who had connections had a far easier time getting better jobs than the former.

You have an anecdote, I have the statistics ... 

What you claim is a total mismatch compared to the starting salaries and unemployement rates of recent graduates ...

Wyrdness said:

The root of the problem is the government, they've added measures now to up the collections and begin shutting down avenues for evasion, this could have been done long ago but guess who was benefitting from it the most? The rich and politicians, politicians themselves reffered to and treated tax evasion like a sport, the population can't stop tax reforms by the way because all of that is voted and handled by the Parliament not the local people.

The government only reflects what it's citizens are in a democracy ... 

The poor, the rich, and alike are all benefitting from it so why single out the few out when an entire nation decides to rob the public of any wealth by not contributing to their own homeland ?