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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - So, Splatoon moved more consoles than DK Tropical Freeze

 

Splatoon vs DK

Splatoon is bigger now 111 72.55%
 
How is this not a tbone thread? 42 27.45%
 
Total:153
Lonely_Dolphin on 04 February 2016
gatito said:
DKCTF disappointed a lot of people. Remember all those Cranky Kong jokes? Not that it was a bad game or anything but there was a huge drought and it just wasn't enough.

The drought is not the fault of DKCTF. 



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Nintyfan90 on 04 February 2016

3D Donkey Kong would have made me so happy.



wombat123 on 04 February 2016
Goodnightmoon said:
Poor Tropical Freeze is one of the best 2D platfomers ever created but people only cares about the fact that is not as ambitious as a Metroid would be.

That and it sort of gets lost within the sea of Wii U platformers/2D games.  Before it was released, the Wii U had NSMBU, NSLU, Mario 3D World and Rayman Legends.  Since its release, the Wii U has gotten Kirby and the Rainbow Curse, Yoshi's Woolly World and Mario Maker (I'm not even going to list all the indie/virtual console 2D platformers).  That being said, I'm not going to criticize Retro's choice in making Tropical Freeze because at the time, it was the 'safe' move (DKCR sold well, they probably had enough ideas for another game and they weren't burnt out on Donkey Kong like they were on Metroid) but I'm not going to call it ambitious -- because it's not.



curl-6 on 04 February 2016
freebs2 said:
curl-6 said:

Actually, that's the whole reason Nintendo acquired Retro in the first place.

Their original purpose, back in the 6th gen, was to make more mature, Western-oriented games to complement Nintendo's more light-hearted offerings.

Lately, Nintendo have lost sight of this, hence Retro's games no longer bring the diversity to Nintendo's catalogue that they used to, and as a result, gamers just aren't as excited about Retro as they used to be.

I agree this was the case in the first place, but we're talking 2000. The market was different and so was Nintendo's overall strategy.

I think Retro, back in the Gamecube days, was praised by many because it represented Nintendo's flagship studio in terms of production values. Now that position can't work anymore beacuse Nintendo, as a whole, doesn't rely on high production values. Sony is the company that relies on high production values now.

In the actual situation a single adult/western oriented game every 3 years wouldn't change pretty much a thing. In terms of sales it would be condemned in the limbo, since all the audience for those games is on Ps/Xbox/PC. In terms of reception it would be overshadowed by multiplatform games with larger productions (since larger audiences justify larger investments).

In the end I believe the best solution for Nintendo is trying to tackle mainstream genres with a different original perspective that is not related to either western or eastern specific tastes. Splatoon is the perfect example. Also Pokken may be considered a different approach to classic fighting games. Even looking in the past, even games like Smash Bros, Mario Kart and Pokemon are different approaches to already existing genres.

So, while I agree Retro (as well as other studios) should bring diversity to Nintendo's catalogue, I think we should adjust our expectations for thier games. This doesn't mean we sholudn't expect great expertly crafted games, just not games that push tecnical or production boundaries like Metorid Prime did.

Retro don't need a Destiny/Grand Theft Auto 5 budget to make a conceptually and technically ambitious game though. 

I'm not saying they have to have 9-figure production values. A lot of today's AAA productions are quite wasteful with money anyhow, throwing away millions on licensed soundtracks, celebrity voice actors, and the like.

While production values certainly played a part in Prime's success, clever design did as well; using the scan visor in place of a traditional narrative, for example, was actually cheaper than having traditional cutscenes and voice acting, yet worked better for the kind of game Prime was.

Similarly, many indie games manage to be technically and/or conceptually ambitious without spending a fortune. Fast Racing Neo is one of the most graphically advanced games on Wii U, and that was made by 5 guys.



freebs2 on 05 February 2016
curl-6 said:
freebs2 said:

I agree this was the case in the first place, but we're talking 2000. The market was different and so was Nintendo's overall strategy.

I think Retro, back in the Gamecube days, was praised by many because it represented Nintendo's flagship studio in terms of production values. Now that position can't work anymore beacuse Nintendo, as a whole, doesn't rely on high production values. Sony is the company that relies on high production values now.

In the actual situation a single adult/western oriented game every 3 years wouldn't change pretty much a thing. In terms of sales it would be condemned in the limbo, since all the audience for those games is on Ps/Xbox/PC. In terms of reception it would be overshadowed by multiplatform games with larger productions (since larger audiences justify larger investments).

In the end I believe the best solution for Nintendo is trying to tackle mainstream genres with a different original perspective that is not related to either western or eastern specific tastes. Splatoon is the perfect example. Also Pokken may be considered a different approach to classic fighting games. Even looking in the past, even games like Smash Bros, Mario Kart and Pokemon are different approaches to already existing genres.

So, while I agree Retro (as well as other studios) should bring diversity to Nintendo's catalogue, I think we should adjust our expectations for thier games. This doesn't mean we sholudn't expect great expertly crafted games, just not games that push tecnical or production boundaries like Metorid Prime did.

Retro don't need a Destiny/Grand Theft Auto 5 budget to make a conceptually and technically ambitious game though. 

I'm not saying they have to have 9-figure production values. A lot of today's AAA productions are quite wasteful with money anyhow, throwing away millions on licensed soundtracks, celebrity voice actors, and the like.

While production values certainly played a part in Prime's success, clever design did as well; using the scan visor in place of a traditional narrative, for example, was actually cheaper than having traditional cutscenes and voice acting, yet worked better for the kind of game Prime was.

Similarly, many indie games manage to be technically and/or conceptually ambitious without spending a fortune. Fast Racing Neo is one of the most graphically advanced games on Wii U, and that was made by 5 guys.

With that i can partially agree. It's true you don't need a big budget to make a conceptually ambitiuos games, also yes a great part of Prime praise was also due to its great design (that quality though wasn't lost in recent DK games). In fact I believe we should still expect Retro games to stands out for gameplay, originality, level design quality and artistic design quality.

On a technical level, on the other hand, it's quite hard to directly compete with AAA games without a comparable budget. Take Zelda U for example. It looks great because it doesn't try to mimick what a standard wrpg look like. If they opted for more realistic visuals it would have looked outdated compared to, say, The Witcher 3 or Dark Souls 3. Same goes for indie developers, they always go for exotic or artsy graphics because it's their only option to make their games visually stand out. Fast Racing Neo is not really a good example because Shinen purposely tapped a genre with no competition on a console with no competition, the same game on PC or Ps4 would have likely gone overlooked.

I remember I read some time ago someone suggesting Retro should be making a 3rd person shooting game, like Uncharted or Tomb Raider. But how can that possibly work out? When Tomb Raider (2013) was released Square Enix admitted the game failed to meet sales target at 3.4 million copies sold. How can they aim to make a game that needs to sell more than 3m copies on a single platform, only to break-even? Yes, you can cut corners, cut voice acting and all, but in the end  the more you detract the more customers will notice. Also what would be the point? Would it move consoles? I believe players on Ps4 wouldn't really care much about it since they can play Uncharted already. If ever they would downplay it - and we have already seen this happening with Rise of the Tomb Raider exclusivity on Xbox One; it was pointless. It's not nice to say it but this is one specific situation in which Nintendo should be going multiplatform in order to be successfull.



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curl-6 on 05 February 2016
freebs2 said:

With that i can partially agree. It's true you don't need a big budget to make a conceptually ambitiuos games, also yes a great part of Prime praise was also due to its great design (that quality though wasn't lost in recent DK games). In fact I believe we should still expect Retro games to stands out for gameplay, originality, level design quality and artistic design quality.

On a technical level, on the other hand, it's quite hard to directly compete with AAA games without a comparable budget. Take Zelda U for example. It looks great because it doesn't try to mimick what a standard wrpg look like. If they opted for more realistic visuals it would have looked outdated compared to, say, The Witcher 3 or Dark Souls 3. Same goes for indie developers, they always go for exotic or artsy graphics because it's their only option to make their games visually stand out. Fast Racing Neo is not really a good example because Shinen purposely tapped a genre with no competition on a console with no competition, the same game on PC or Ps4 would have likely gone overlooked.

I remember I read some time ago someone suggesting Retro should be making a 3rd person shooting game, like Uncharted or Tomb Raider. But how can that possibly work out? When Tomb Raider (2013) was released Square Enix admitted the game failed to meet sales target at 3.4 million copies sold. How can they aim to make a game that needs to sell more than 3m copies on a single platform, only to break-even? Yes, you can cut corners, cut voice acting and all, but in the end  the more you detract the more customers will notice. Also what would be the point? Would it move consoles? I believe players on Ps4 wouldn't really care much about it since they can play Uncharted already. If ever they would downplay it - and we have already seen this happening with Rise of the Tomb Raider exclusivity on Xbox One; it was pointless. It's not nice to say it but this is one specific situation in which Nintendo should be going multiplatform in order to be successfull.

Fast Racing Neo may not have competition from other futuristic racing games on console, but it still managed to be one of the most technologically accomplished Wii U titles despite being made with literally a handful of people. You can make great graphics without breaking the bank.

I would agree that it would be folly for Retro to spend a fortune trying outdo Uncharted for example. But I don't think that has to preclude them making ambitious titles. I don't think it's necessarily a matter of all or nothing; there's a sizeable middle ground between Tropical Freeze and Rise of the Tomb Raider, Retro could find a balance somewhere in between.



Nem on 05 February 2016

DKTF is apparantly a very good game.

But i do think retro overestimated the demand for it.

They totally should've made Metroid instead.



wombat123 on 05 February 2016
Nem said:

DKTF is apparantly a very good game.

But i do think retro overestimated the demand for it.

They totally should've made Metroid instead.

Honestly, I think a lot of people were expecting a new IP.  Hell, I'm expecting their next game to be a new IP.  I'd like them to start creating their own legacy within Nintendo instead of just continuously working on IPs made by other people.



curl-6 on 05 February 2016
wombat123 said:

Honestly, I think a lot of people were expecting a new IP.  Hell, I'm expecting their next game to be a new IP.  I'd like them to start creating their own legacy within Nintendo instead of just continuously working on IPs made by other people.

This.

We know that Retro can make fantastic reimaginings of established franchises, now I want to see what they can come up with from a fresh slate.



Skratchy on 05 February 2016

Why does this even matter? They are two completely different games by different developers. Leave Retro alone. 

"Does every other developer suck because NONE of them can push as many units as Call of Duty?" No, it's apples an oranges. Splatoon found a niche because no other game is quite like it.