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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is God's existence objectively verifiable?

 

Well, is it objectively verifiable?

Yes 57 15.20%
 
Not Sure 20 5.33%
 
No 244 65.07%
 
What's objective mean? 16 4.27%
 
Results 38 10.13%
 
Total:375
Dulfite said:
Azuren said:

So you trust the written word of primitives unlikely to truly understand the intent and meaning of a non-linear being, and then repeatedly altered throughout one of history's darkest times for reasons that seemed to oddly benefit those in power? Good on you.

Preach all you want, but it doesn't answer the God Paradox. At the end of the day, God created everything from nothing. In this creation, he either messed up (which he apparently can't) and created a system that can damn the things he supposedly loves to eternal torment, OR he simply doesn't love us and would rather subjugate us the way a king subjugates serfs.

So answer me this: Is your god fallible, or is he apathetic?

I believe scripture is God breathed. God went through man to write it. I don't believe God would allow HIS word to be altered by man into anything that isn't true. If one accepts that God exists (which I do), and one accepts that God is all powerful (which I do), and one accepts that nothing that happens could ever alter what God has planned (which I do), then believing God's scripture is infallible is not difficult.

God isn't fallible or apathetic. Do you honestly believe I'd be talking to you, or even caring about my own existence or life if I thought otherwise? I mean, how depressing would it be to live life with no hope whatesoever? Why not just kill myself now and get it over with if I know hell is waiting for me? I do not believe either of those at all. Apathetic would be if HE didn't give us a way out of our condemnation. He gave us Jesus Christ, who died the worst death in history (way beyond just physical pain), despite not sinning once. And he didn't mess up. He gave humans brains to think for themselves and people chose to hurt themselves (by sinning and distancing themselves from God). We are a destructive race, but that doesn't mean God created us wrong. With choice comes temptation to do what isn't right, and we do that all the time. Praise be to God that HE gave us salvation through Jesus Christ, despite all the terrible things I do in my life.

Except the Bible has been translated several times and entire BOOKS have been omitted. The Bible is not the word of God, it is the fallible writings of man. 

 

You didn't answer the question, either. You argued in a circle using a bunch of philosophical nonsense, just like my preacher did when I brought the God Paradox to him. It's a trick question, by the way, one designed to dismantle most religious arguments. See, it doesn't matter what excuse you give, because your God still created a foundation that conflicts with at least one thing you think about him. If he loved us, he wouldn't have created a system that we can fail. If he wanted free will, he wouldn't punish it with eternal torment. And if he has a plan, there is no free will.

 

Simple, childish questions unraveling entire religions. Silly.



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the-pi-guy said:
Dulfite said:

I believe scripture is God breathed. God went through man to write it. I don't believe God would allow HIS word to be altered by man into anything that isn't true. If one accepts that God exists (which I do), and one accepts that God is all powerful (which I do), and one accepts that nothing that happens could ever alter what God has planned (which I do), then believing God's scripture is infallible is not difficult.

Different Bibles word things differently, and ultimately much of the meaning may have been changed by man.  We can argue that some line means something different, and we don't really know.  

Translations are difficult, and are done by man.  

Interpretations are difficult and done by man.  

What about when the Bible is "clearly" metaphorical?

Does the Earth move?

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

 

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

 

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

 

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

 

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

We call this cherrypicking, when someone tries to argue against the Bible by taking random verses out of context. The Bible is meant to be read in order, not randomly. But since you found those verses, I'll share what someone else responded to them:

Response: "The claim seems to have an underlying assumption that it is impossible to be "fixed" and "immovable" and yet orbit around the sun. But the fact is, the earth has proven itself to be fixed and immovable:

• The earth is fixed and immovable in relation to its orbit around the sun. Have you ever known the earth to "unfix" itself and "move" itself out of its orbit around the sun? It doesn't happen, because the earth is fixed and immovable in relation to its orbit around the sun.

• The earth also is fixed and immovable in relation to us. There has never been a single day in which we had no place to stand, because the earth unfixed itself and moved itself out from under our feet.

The earth has always been fixed and immovable, both in relation to us and in relation to its orbit around the sun. In fact we've learned to take it for granted that the sun will shine during the day and that there will ground for us to stand on when we awake in the morning.

Having said that, one should at least consider the possibility that the verses cited above are actually using a figure of speech, to express the permanence of God's will and the permanence of his creation."



the-pi-guy said:
Dulfite said:

We call this cherrypicking, when someone tries to argue against the Bible by taking random verses out of context. The Bible is meant to be read in order, not randomly. But since you found those verses, I'll share what someone else responded to them:

Response: "The claim seems to have an underlying assumption that it is impossible to be "fixed" and "immovable" and yet orbit around the sun. But the fact is, the earth has proven itself to be fixed and immovable:

• The earth is fixed and immovable in relation to its orbit around the sun. Have you ever known the earth to "unfix" itself and "move" itself out of its orbit around the sun? It doesn't happen, because the earth is fixed and immovable in relation to its orbit around the sun.

• The earth also is fixed and immovable in relation to us. There has never been a single day in which we had no place to stand, because the earth unfixed itself and moved itself out from under our feet.

The earth has always been fixed and immovable, both in relation to us and in relation to its orbit around the sun. In fact we've learned to take it for granted that the sun will shine during the day and that there will ground for us to stand on when we awake in the morning.

Having said that, one should at least consider the possibility that the verses cited above are actually using a figure of speech, to express the permanence of God's will and the permanence of his creation."

You've done an excellent job of proving my point.

This is a new interpretation, that's very different from the interpretation that people had in the 1500's.  They read these and took it to mean that the Earth was literally immovable.  Particularly the story of Joshua and the sun.  If you reinterpret it to mean something else, then someone has misunderstood its meaning.  Either you or the vast majority of Christians in the 15th century were wrong about what those passages really mean.  Effectively altered by man into something that isn't true.

The Bible isn't to be changed, but man is sinful. 

I'm fairly certain that people in the 1500's believed that if we jumped, the Earth wouldn't just suddenly disappear, just like people now days believe that. But I'm not going to argue with you. You can believe whatever you want. All I will say is a LOT of people try to convince themselves that the Gospel is false or wrong by trying to points out some flaw and convincing themselves that there is one. There are also a LOT of people that had issues and found that they just didn't understand those issues prior to salvation. With faith in Christ comes understanding. You have to take a leap of faith.



Attiq said:

 

Still doing things during my life while believing in God, His Son and The Holy Spirit. What will you be doing when your dead?

Oh yeah, believing out of fear, that's just great! Problem is, if you believe in the wrong god, you've also wasted your eternity. As there are thousands and thousands of gods, it's more probable than not that whatever god you chose is the wrong one. That sucks, doesn't it? To believe in the right god is basically the same chance as winning the lottery.

To answer your question, when I'm dead I will mostly be busy with being dead. Without any sensors for seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling nor the ability to think even a single thought, I don't think I will care too much. I think a big problem people have with death is that they simply cannot imagine not to be. It's understandable, no one can imagine such a state. But just because you can't imagine something doesn't mean it won't happen. However, I'm not afraid of death. I was dead before, about 30 years ago before I popped into existence. I don't have any bad memories about that time. In fact, I have less bad memories about the 13.8 billion years before my existence than I have about my lifetime! But whatever, my memories will be erased one day. And to me, that's a good thing. 

Eternal life for me is the biggest horror I could possibly imagine. Think about it, what will you do with all that time? No matter what you did, no matter how long you are already there, you always have an eternity ahead of you. I bet that gets boring real quick, like in 1.000 years or so. But that's nothing compared to eternity! You will be around for another trilliontrilliontrilliontrilliontrillion years and there's no way out whatsoever! How can anybody in their right mind desire such a state? 



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OdinHades said:
Attiq said:

 

Still doing things during my life while believing in God, His Son and The Holy Spirit. What will you be doing when your dead?

Oh yeah, believing out of fear, that's just great! Problem is, if you believe in the wrong god, you've also wasted your eternity. As there are thousands and thousands of gods, it's more probable than not that whatever god you chose is the wrong one. That sucks, doesn't it? To believe in the right god is basically the same chance as winning the lottery.

To answer your question, when I'm dead I will mostly be busy with being dead. Without any sensors for seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling nor the ability to think even a single thought, I don't think I will care too much. I think a big problem people have with death is that they simply cannot imagine not to be. It's understandable, no one can imagine such a state. But just because you can't imagine something doesn't mean it won't happen. However, I'm not afraid of death. I was dead before, about 30 years ago before I popped into existence. I don't have any bad memories about that time. In fact, I have less bad memories about the 13.8 billion years before my existence than I have about my lifetime! But whatever, my memories will be erased one day. And to me, that's a good thing. 

Eternal life for me is the biggest horror I could possibly imagine. Think about it, what will you do with all that time? No matter what you did, no matter how long you are already there, you always have an eternity ahead of you. I bet that gets boring real quick, like in 1.000 years or so. But that's nothing compared to eternity! You will be around for another trilliontrilliontrilliontrilliontrillion years and there's no way out whatsoever! How can anybody in their right mind desire such a state? 

As an agnostic, I find this depressing. Not that I disagree with you- there's more scientific evidence of this than not- I'm just depressed that it will simply end there.

 

I'd like to think that there are aspects of consciousness that we can't measure yet- I suppose whatever you would call a soul. Every religion has it, and it's hard to believe that isn't one. Of course, this is faith without proof. But I feel and hope there is something beyond our bodies, like maybe we just shed them and our ethereal selves can travel the cosmos, uninhibited by the laws of time and space.

 

Which would be totally badass. But I dunno.



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SlayerRondo said:
Mr.Playstation said:

Moses- Existed
Jesus- Existed
Abraham -Existed

They all talked about the same god and there was a period of 2000 years between Abraham and Jesus.

According to the bible.



Please don't bring up this BS argument that these people didn't exist.  There is more evidence Jesus existed than Alexander the Great.  HOWEVER that is an entirely separate argument from if God exists.

Just because they mentioned the "same" god doesn't prove anything.



Prediction for console Lifetime sales:

Wii:100-120 million, PS3:80-110 million, 360:70-100 million

[Prediction Made 11/5/2009]

3DS: 65m, PSV: 22m, Wii U: 18-22m, PS4: 80-120m, X1: 35-55m

I gauruntee the PS5 comes out after only 5-6 years after the launch of the PS4.

[Prediction Made 6/18/2014]

Azuren said:
OdinHades said:

 

As an agnostic, I find this depressing. Not that I disagree with you- there's more scientific evidence of this than not- I'm just depressed that it will simply end there.

 

I'd like to think that there aspects of consciousness that we can't measure yet- I suppose whatever you would call a soul. Every religion has it, and it's hard to believe that isn't one. Of course, this is faith without proof. But I feel and hope there is something beyond our bodies, like maybe we just shed them and our ethereal selves can travel the cosmos, uninhibited by the laws of time and space.

Which would be totally badass. But I dunno.

Perhaps, and I hope this is true.  But I also have to bring up that I think it is pathetic that some people (Including a couple of friends of mine) say that they aren't atheists because that would be too depressing.

There is so much more to life than clinging to a belief that it never ends.  To be clear I am not an atheist, but I do not need religion to tell me life has meaning and is worth living.



Prediction for console Lifetime sales:

Wii:100-120 million, PS3:80-110 million, 360:70-100 million

[Prediction Made 11/5/2009]

3DS: 65m, PSV: 22m, Wii U: 18-22m, PS4: 80-120m, X1: 35-55m

I gauruntee the PS5 comes out after only 5-6 years after the launch of the PS4.

[Prediction Made 6/18/2014]

I've seen hundreds/thousands of articles and videos attempting to disprove God or impose doubt. None have been successful. There is a lot of weak arguments from atheists not just religious people. Even things as simple as Atheists doctoring quotes from people like Lincoln to make him look like an atheist when any text source quote says basically the opposite.

Within Christianity I've heard space jesus, multiple jesus combined as one, copied from other religions, never existed, ect, but throught counter research I tend to always find a response that points flaws in their arguments. Obviously you have to put faith into the Christian religion, but to be fair the religion and Bible are completely self aware of faith before anything modern came about to argue against it.

The existence of a God seems highly likely to me regardless of religion or opinions of cosmology. 



Azuren said:
[...]

As an agnostic, I find this depressing. Not that I disagree with you- there's more scientific evidence of this than not- I'm just depressed that it will simply end there.

 

I'd like to think that there are aspects of consciousness that we can't measure yet- I suppose whatever you would call a soul. Every religion has it, and it's hard to believe that isn't one. Of course, this is faith without proof. But I feel and hope there is something beyond our bodies, like maybe we just shed them and our ethereal selves can travel the cosmos, uninhibited by the laws of time and space.

 

Which would be totally badass. But I dunno.

Oh boy, this is probably gonna be a long one and I hope my english is good enough. But I'll try. =D

Ok, first off, I don't have anything to back up what I'm about to say. But I don't think there needs to be something like an eternal soul. What exactly would that be worth when you lose all your memory with death? You wouldn't know who you were before anyway, so what's the point? It wouldn't make a big difference if there is some holy parasite out of dark matter floating around, waiting for his or her next victim or a soul just disappearing. Whatever happens, without a body, you won't be aware of it. It's really just basic physics. Even if there were eternal souls aware of their surroundings and everything, then why did life begin in the first place? The way I see it, life's whole purpose is to create individuals who are aware of themselves, who can act themselves and in the best case think about themselves and the world. But with eternal sould, such a state is already a given. Better yet, such eternal beings wouldn't need constant supply with energy in form of food, water and air. It would really be a step backwards to put your eternal soul into a human being! It just doesn't make sense to me.

However, that's no reason for me to become depresses, because I have a different approach when it comes to eternity. In the end, and this is only my humble opinion, the concept of death is absolutely genius if you ask me. It is the one and only way to combine an infinite universe with finite lifetimes. Think about it, one day, you're dead and that's it, right? Ok, but from everything we know, it pretty much looks like the universe is infinite. Even if it isn't there might be another universe after this. Physics tell us that there can't be simply nothing. Even in a perfect vaccum, there are still some things happening. But that's a topic for itself. However, given infinity, even events with the smallest imaginable probability are bound to happen over and over and over again. And this very fact means you and I are going to be reborn - over and over and over again. Mathematics also back me up on this one. After all, I have proof that this very event I'm talking about happened at least once before. Otherwise I wouldn't be here. So if it happened before, it will happen again in an infinite universe. There's no avoiding it. 

What I really like about that thought is that I won't know anything about it when I pop into existence once again. It will feel like the first time all over again. I mean it's really the best way possible to deal with infinity. Another great thing about this concept is that there is not even a waiting time involved. You won't experience anything like a time between your existences. It could take billions of years or even more, without a brain you simply won't notice. From your point of view, it all happens in an instant. Of course you won't remember it and stuff, but still.

If we scrap the thought that we need eternal souls and instead adopt the thought that our very beings are nothing more but a very specific form of information - that's when we get really immortal. Eternal souls can get destoyed by gods or something or they could fall into a black hole. As long as there is ANYTHING physically involved, it can get damaged. But you cannot destroy information. Even if it gets lost, it can always be built anew. Like the information about the wheel. When the earth gets destroyed and takes humanity with it, the information about the wheel is seemingly destroyed. But still nothing is keeping another civilization from inventing it once again. The same would be true for our very beings if it's nothing more than information. The moment it gets destroyed, it can appear once again somewhere in this universe. A nice side effect is that in form of information, our beings are also able to travel through time and also potentially faster than light - because your next being doesn't need a causal connection to your life here on earth.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I think all of this works. But it's just speculation and I'm probably wrong. =D



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Um... I believe in God and I don't feel like I'm wasting my life believing in him. Sorry for anyone that feels that way though.