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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is God's existence objectively verifiable?

 

Well, is it objectively verifiable?

Yes 57 15.20%
 
Not Sure 20 5.33%
 
No 244 65.07%
 
What's objective mean? 16 4.27%
 
Results 38 10.13%
 
Total:375
WookieSquatch said:
Ljink96 said:
RadiantDanceMachine said:
Ljink96 said:
asqarkabab said:
Mr.Playstation said:

Moses- Existed
Jesus- Existed
Abraham -Existed

They all talked about the same god and there was a period of 2000 years between Abraham and Jesus.

how you know that moses and abraham existed ??

jesus is another case

like Muhammad and all other prophets 

God exists because the world was not created automaticely

Well, we at least know Noah existed because they found the ark a while back. It had the exact same dimensions as described in the Bible. And I guess, if those people don't exist then the Roman empire didn't exist too? You can freaking visit Jesus's tomb. There has been water found in which one group of h20 is hydrophobic of another, hinting at water that was split by Moses.



Ugh, why do people propagate this nonsense? Please stop taking everything your religious friends tell you as gospel truth. There has been no ark found, this is not even debatable. It's yet another Ron Wyatt fraud.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/noahsark.asp

Even Answers in Genesis website tells you to stop spreading this bullshit:

https://answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2013/12/19/has-noahs-ark-been-found/

 



Even if these non-viable sources are right, you ignore the hard hitting points I mentioned about the Roman Empire and Jesus. This stuff is documented. Jesus wasn't fake. His miracles were documented. Speaking in tongues, it's real. It's the sign of the holy spirit living within you. You think millions of people just act like they all can speak a different tongue all of a sudden?

I've witnessed a friend, who I've never even thought would be demonic, have a spirit cast out of her body and when the pastor asked the demon what its name was, it spoke through her and said "Legion". I was scared as hell that day.

There was a recorded happening in which a teenager was hit by a vehicle and pronounced dead on the scene. His brain was on the freaking street. He was taken to the morgue where his mother, with prayer and power, called him back and sure enough he woke up and told his mother that he was sorry. The doctors and nurses ran out the room, in disbelief in what they saw.

I was born with a defect in which I could not urinate. It was destroying my body. The doctors had no idea what to do, all the treatments failed. But my mother told me that one night, she had been crying about my situation and was praying that a miracle would come my way and that night, she said a figure sat down on her bed and told her that I would have a wet diaper in the morning. Sure enough, she woke up and I no longer had the complication.

When my brother was born, the doctors said he wouldn't live to see a year of age. My parents were distraught but they called a good friend of theirs to pray for him. When the friend arrived, all of the newborn babies that were crying at the hospital...just stopped when he walked in. Every single one of them. He prayed for my brother and the complication resolved shortly there after. 

You can't tell me that God isn't real. There are things that not even science can prove.



 

You're right, no one can tell you that god isn't real because you can't prove a negative, but that's just about the only thing you're right about. You're not bringing up any hard hitting evidence at all, it's all claptrap pushed by religious zealots with no real science behind it.

The general consensus was that moses didn't exist. There is little to no evidence that Abraham existed. The Noah story was just a rip of of The Epic of Gilgamesh, which came way before the Noah story, and no, no one has found an ark. Jesus's existence is debateable, though the consensus seems to lean towards him existing.

If you want to believe for personal reasons that's cool, and no one can take that away from you, but don't try to bring all these made up facts to the table.

Why so heated? I'm not gonna sit here and act like an explosion created intelligent life. You ignore me again, you're increasingly ignorant. There are things that science CAN NOT prove and hasn't proven. "Jesus's existance is debatable". Are you kidding me? So, Pontius Pilate's existance is debatable too? He oversaw the crucifixion of Jesus. Who's posting facts here? Did I say...any factual sentences?

You're just cutting out the parts of my argument and pasting what you like. A complete biased tactic. How do you explain "Speaking in tongues"? Science? This tongue is what Jesus left before his departure in order to mark those who know the holy spirit. If all of my other anecdotes are false...even though doctors and scientests couldn't explain those happenings, please tell me how introns and exons, inhibitors and myofibrils, grey matter and white matter expalin this phenomenon? Please do. Or are you just going to ignore that too?

I am a believer in science. I see what it is and has done. But I know that there's things that it cannot prove because we lack the understanding and knowledge of a higher being.





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Ljink96 said:
Scoobes said:
Ljink96 said:
RadiantDanceMachine said:
Ljink96 said:
I've seen too many things in my life to question the assistance of God.

Just gonna leave this here:

RadiantDanceMachine said:

It is my position that no amount of subjective evidence would be sufficient to prove a claim. 

Since subjective evidence is mere opinion, it serves no function in matters of truth.

 



That's fine. Believe what you will. But I guess the Bible was a novel written by Shakespeare.



Who do you think wrote the Bible?



I was pretty sure numerous people wrote the thing, including David and Abraham. Who do you think wrote it?



Correct, in that a large number of people wrote it. It is, in a sense, a collection of oral tales that circulated and eventually were written down. At some period in time, jewish priests selected a fraction of these texts to construct a book  - this became the old testament.





Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

Ljink96 said:
Scoobes said:

Who do you think wrote the Bible?

I was pretty sure numerous people wrote the thing, including David and Abraham. Who do you think wrote it?

The same. A lot of the old testament was derived from Mesopotamian myths that aren't strictly Christian.

My question is why should we give this small collection of texts written thousands of years ago any preference over the numerous other texts from that age? They were all written by human beings. Assuming god exists, whose to say god didn't give another human being a set of commands and information, they wrote them down but now we ignore them?





Frank_kc said:
nuckles87 said:
Frank_kc said:
JWeinCom said:
Frank_kc said:
Definitely god exists. This is to the atheists who keep denying the existence of god. If I slap you in the face, you will get pain... Can you see pain? Can you see electricity?? Can you see frequencies? If You cant see Pain, Electricity, frequencies.. that doesnt mean it doesnt exist!!!!! You can see a proof of god creation in this world.. If we take a look to the planes, cars, TVs, etc, it would be irrational if we say that all exist by themselves. There must be people who make them!

If the simple thing such as the match has its makers, then the universe that far more complex than that must be has its creator.


And for all the believers in Darwin's evolution, give me an example of only one creature who changed its species.. I only challenge you with one example... Adjusting to environment doesn't change species... a bird will always be a bird. Everything Darwin's is talking about is a theory which has not been proven and if you have a proof, show it to me.

Someone has been listening to too much Ray Comfort...

 

I really dont know him nor I care who he is. I am just stating facts, not illusions.

But you aren't stating facts. You're just demonstrating your ignorance of them. XD

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be mean, but I'll list out the flaws in your argument:

1. The problem isn't that we cannot SEE God. The problem is that we have no means of detecting him.

2. We have tools that can detect and measure frequencies. We know that pain is something that we detect via pain receptors in our nerves. And we CAN actually "see" electricity. I mean, that's what lightning is, among other things. But we know electricity is there because we have a means of detecting it and utilizing it in every day life.

3. Yes, it would be irrational to think that TVs, cars, and planes built themselves....because we know we built them. We know how to make them. We know the names of the people who played a role in inventing them. We know what parts go into them.

4. But we cannot say the same for God. We have no means of detecting God. We don't know where God is. What God is. God, unlike all of these things, exists COMPLETELY outside of the realm of science and the physical world.

5. I'm gonna ask a question here: why DOES a universe as complex as ours absolutely NEED a creator?

6. Corn. You know corn, right? You know what it looks like? Before native americans utilized genetic selection to change it into what it is today, it used to look like this: http://www.ars.usda.gov/sp2UserFiles/ad_hoc/36222000DiverseMaizeResearch/images/teoF1earzone.JPG

Of course, this happened over thousands of years. Real evolution that leads to the sort of biodiversity we have today takes millions of years.

7. Actually, birds are dinosaurs.

8. Actually, changing an environment does change a species. A polar bear is not the same species as a black bear or a sun bear. They all belong to the same family (ursidae) but genetically they are each distinct species. A polar bear evolved to survive arctic temperatures. Black bears evolved to survive in temperate, seasonal environments. Sunbears evolved to live in tropical rain forests.

9. Finally, I just want to say that evolution being a theory is the same thing as gravity being a theory. Understanding evolution is a fundemental part of modern biological science. It's how we have been genetically modifying plants and animals through artificial selection for thousands of years. It plays a critical part in our understanding of DNA. It is evident throughout the genes of all living organisms (see the above link about the bird with the dino snout) and throughout our planet's fossil record.  What's more, we've observed evolution in real time on the microbial level.

In other words, there is far more evidence for evolution, than for the idea that every living organism on planet earth was created exactly as it exists now 5000 years ago.

 

 



1- The facts that you cant detect him, again, doesnt mean that he doesnt exist. We have signs of his existence. It is very simple, who decided to have a magnetic fields around earth to protect it?  Science? Nature? or some one else? why is the shape of earth is not flat? who decided that? The science you use to defend your theories, was created by some one or did just came out of no where?

2- Check point 1

3- If you know who built cars, planes. etc...how would you explain existence of our universe with its precise system, rules  and controls. did just come up for no where?

5- Because there is no system that can create it self. Why do we need an air traffic controller in an airport, it is a complex system, it can run it self by it self.......! Didnt we need to have a creator for an air traffic control system to ensure safety of flights?

6- It is still a corn, didn it evolve to something else like an apple? How would you now that it takes millions of years? do yo u have any proof? or is it all theories and assumptions by humans?

7- Dont tell this to any one so that you wouldnt look stupid. Many creatures have skulls and bones and skeletons, and some similarities can exist in some creatures.

8- Actually, your example destroys your evolution theory. A bear it is still a bear, it only adjusted to its environment or surroundings. It didn’t evolve to something else like a Tiger for example.

 

9- We are taking about things evolving naturally based on your theories and not genetic changes made by humans. 

 

 

 

 

 



1-Magnetic fields are well-studied phenomenon, produced by Earth's spin (and large mass). Other planets have them too - the more mass and spin, the stronger the field. Fits in perfectly with the comprehension of electromagnetic waves we have, and use as technology.

 

6- At what point would you say that it isn't corn anymore? natural selection (evolution works in the same way human selesction does; simply, instead of humans choosing what survives based on their needs, it's simply the plants that are most apt to survive in that environnement. Notice that lettuce, cabbage, cauliflower and brusselsprouts where all made with human selection from the same plants. Human selection is simply more rapid, because it is absolute selection, while natural selection just makes it slightly more likely to survive.

9- The following experiment was made - one puts a uniform sample of bacteria in an unideal environnement (too acid, for example.) WIth each generation, bacteria with the highest resistance survived - and the sample evolved to be more resistant to acidity, over time.

 

You really should just read some proper content about evolution - there is plenty of material, with plenty of examples, if one gives the effort.

 





Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

Ljink96 said:
WookieSquatch said:
Ljink96 said:
RadiantDanceMachine said:
Ljink96 said:
asqarkabab said:
Mr.Playstation said:

Moses- Existed
Jesus- Existed
Abraham -Existed

They all talked about the same god and there was a period of 2000 years between Abraham and Jesus.

how you know that moses and abraham existed ??

jesus is another case

like Muhammad and all other prophets 

God exists because the world was not created automaticely

Well, we at least know Noah existed because they found the ark a while back. It had the exact same dimensions as described in the Bible. And I guess, if those people don't exist then the Roman empire didn't exist too? You can freaking visit Jesus's tomb. There has been water found in which one group of h20 is hydrophobic of another, hinting at water that was split by Moses.



Ugh, why do people propagate this nonsense? Please stop taking everything your religious friends tell you as gospel truth. There has been no ark found, this is not even debatable. It's yet another Ron Wyatt fraud.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/noahsark.asp

Even Answers in Genesis website tells you to stop spreading this bullshit:

https://answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2013/12/19/has-noahs-ark-been-found/

 



Even if these non-viable sources are right, you ignore the hard hitting points I mentioned about the Roman Empire and Jesus. This stuff is documented. Jesus wasn't fake. His miracles were documented. Speaking in tongues, it's real. It's the sign of the holy spirit living within you. You think millions of people just act like they all can speak a different tongue all of a sudden?

I've witnessed a friend, who I've never even thought would be demonic, have a spirit cast out of her body and when the pastor asked the demon what its name was, it spoke through her and said "Legion". I was scared as hell that day.

There was a recorded happening in which a teenager was hit by a vehicle and pronounced dead on the scene. His brain was on the freaking street. He was taken to the morgue where his mother, with prayer and power, called him back and sure enough he woke up and told his mother that he was sorry. The doctors and nurses ran out the room, in disbelief in what they saw.

I was born with a defect in which I could not urinate. It was destroying my body. The doctors had no idea what to do, all the treatments failed. But my mother told me that one night, she had been crying about my situation and was praying that a miracle would come my way and that night, she said a figure sat down on her bed and told her that I would have a wet diaper in the morning. Sure enough, she woke up and I no longer had the complication.

When my brother was born, the doctors said he wouldn't live to see a year of age. My parents were distraught but they called a good friend of theirs to pray for him. When the friend arrived, all of the newborn babies that were crying at the hospital...just stopped when he walked in. Every single one of them. He prayed for my brother and the complication resolved shortly there after. 

You can't tell me that God isn't real. There are things that not even science can prove.



 

You're right, no one can tell you that god isn't real because you can't prove a negative, but that's just about the only thing you're right about. You're not bringing up any hard hitting evidence at all, it's all claptrap pushed by religious zealots with no real science behind it.

The general consensus was that moses didn't exist. There is little to no evidence that Abraham existed. The Noah story was just a rip of of The Epic of Gilgamesh, which came way before the Noah story, and no, no one has found an ark. Jesus's existence is debateable, though the consensus seems to lean towards him existing.

If you want to believe for personal reasons that's cool, and no one can take that away from you, but don't try to bring all these made up facts to the table.

Why so heated? I'm not gonna sit here and act like an explosion created intelligent life. You ignore me again, you're increasingly ignorant. There are things that science CAN NOT prove and hasn't proven. "Jesus's existance is debatable". Are you kidding me? So, Pontius Pilate's existance is debatable too? He oversaw the crucifixion of Jesus. Who's posting facts here? Did I say...any factual sentences?

You're just cutting out the parts of my argument and pasting what you like. A complete biased tactic. How do you explain "Speaking in tongues"? Science? This tongue is what Jesus left before his departure in order to mark those who know the holy spirit. If all of my other anecdotes are false...even though doctors and scientests couldn't explain those happenings, please tell me how introns and exons, inhibitors and myofibrils, grey matter and white matter expalin this phenomenon? Please do. Or are you just going to ignore that too?

I am a believer in science. I see what it is and has done. But I know that there's things that it cannot prove because we lack the understanding and knowledge of a higher being.



 

Honestly, it frustrates me when I see people throwing out blatantly false information like that noahs ark existed and we've found it.

There is actually a lot of debate on the topic of whether or not Jesus existed, though as I stated the general consensus is that he probably did. I can send you some sources if you're interested.  I haven't read much about Pontius Pilate, but I'd assume being a Roman official there would be a lot more reliable records of him, but him existing doesn't prove that Jesus existed.

I didn't address speaking in tongues because I don't even think it's worth talking about. Do you have legitimate peer reviewed scientific studies that point to it being a genunine phenonmen, or just anectdotal evidence? Speaking in tongues is something that can be studied, and everything I've read points to it being nonsense.

Pretty much everythign you mentioned are just anectodotes, which is why I ignored them. If prayer is so effective why does it have such a low success rate? How come god is only willing to perform miracles in super ambiguous ways that leave so much room for doubt? Never do you see someone spontaneously regrow a limb, bullet wounds magically close, heads re-attached, etc. Why so vague? Sounds like self confirmation bias to me.



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WookieSquatch said:
Ljink96 said:
WookieSquatch said:
Ljink96 said:
RadiantDanceMachine said:
Ljink96 said:
asqarkabab said:
Mr.Playstation said:

Moses- Existed
Jesus- Existed
Abraham -Existed

They all talked about the same god and there was a period of 2000 years between Abraham and Jesus.

how you know that moses and abraham existed ??

jesus is another case

like Muhammad and all other prophets 

God exists because the world was not created automaticely

Well, we at least know Noah existed because they found the ark a while back. It had the exact same dimensions as described in the Bible. And I guess, if those people don't exist then the Roman empire didn't exist too? You can freaking visit Jesus's tomb. There has been water found in which one group of h20 is hydrophobic of another, hinting at water that was split by Moses.



Ugh, why do people propagate this nonsense? Please stop taking everything your religious friends tell you as gospel truth. There has been no ark found, this is not even debatable. It's yet another Ron Wyatt fraud.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/noahsark.asp

Even Answers in Genesis website tells you to stop spreading this bullshit:

https://answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2013/12/19/has-noahs-ark-been-found/

 



Even if these non-viable sources are right, you ignore the hard hitting points I mentioned about the Roman Empire and Jesus. This stuff is documented. Jesus wasn't fake. His miracles were documented. Speaking in tongues, it's real. It's the sign of the holy spirit living within you. You think millions of people just act like they all can speak a different tongue all of a sudden?

I've witnessed a friend, who I've never even thought would be demonic, have a spirit cast out of her body and when the pastor asked the demon what its name was, it spoke through her and said "Legion". I was scared as hell that day.

There was a recorded happening in which a teenager was hit by a vehicle and pronounced dead on the scene. His brain was on the freaking street. He was taken to the morgue where his mother, with prayer and power, called him back and sure enough he woke up and told his mother that he was sorry. The doctors and nurses ran out the room, in disbelief in what they saw.

I was born with a defect in which I could not urinate. It was destroying my body. The doctors had no idea what to do, all the treatments failed. But my mother told me that one night, she had been crying about my situation and was praying that a miracle would come my way and that night, she said a figure sat down on her bed and told her that I would have a wet diaper in the morning. Sure enough, she woke up and I no longer had the complication.

When my brother was born, the doctors said he wouldn't live to see a year of age. My parents were distraught but they called a good friend of theirs to pray for him. When the friend arrived, all of the newborn babies that were crying at the hospital...just stopped when he walked in. Every single one of them. He prayed for my brother and the complication resolved shortly there after. 

You can't tell me that God isn't real. There are things that not even science can prove.



 

You're right, no one can tell you that god isn't real because you can't prove a negative, but that's just about the only thing you're right about. You're not bringing up any hard hitting evidence at all, it's all claptrap pushed by religious zealots with no real science behind it.

The general consensus was that moses didn't exist. There is little to no evidence that Abraham existed. The Noah story was just a rip of of The Epic of Gilgamesh, which came way before the Noah story, and no, no one has found an ark. Jesus's existence is debateable, though the consensus seems to lean towards him existing.

If you want to believe for personal reasons that's cool, and no one can take that away from you, but don't try to bring all these made up facts to the table.

Why so heated? I'm not gonna sit here and act like an explosion created intelligent life. You ignore me again, you're increasingly ignorant. There are things that science CAN NOT prove and hasn't proven. "Jesus's existance is debatable". Are you kidding me? So, Pontius Pilate's existance is debatable too? He oversaw the crucifixion of Jesus. Who's posting facts here? Did I say...any factual sentences?

You're just cutting out the parts of my argument and pasting what you like. A complete biased tactic. How do you explain "Speaking in tongues"? Science? This tongue is what Jesus left before his departure in order to mark those who know the holy spirit. If all of my other anecdotes are false...even though doctors and scientests couldn't explain those happenings, please tell me how introns and exons, inhibitors and myofibrils, grey matter and white matter expalin this phenomenon? Please do. Or are you just going to ignore that too?

I am a believer in science. I see what it is and has done. But I know that there's things that it cannot prove because we lack the understanding and knowledge of a higher being.



 

Honestly, it frustrates me when I see people throwing out blatantly false information like that noahs ark existed and we've found it.

There is actually a lot of debate on the topic of whether or not Jesus existed, though as I stated the general consensus is that he probably did. I can send you some sources if you're interested.  I haven't read much about Pontius Pilate, but I'd assume being a Roman official there would be a lot more reliable records of him, but him existing doesn't prove that Jesus existed.

I didn't address speaking in tongues because I don't even think it's worth talking about. Do you have legitimate peer reviewed scientific studies that point to it being a genunine phenonmen, or just anectdotal evidence? Speaking in tongues is something that can be studied, and everything I've read points to it being nonsense.

Pretty much everythign you mentioned are just anectodotes, which is why I ignored them. If prayer is so effective why does it have such a low success rate? How come god is only willing to perform miracles in super ambiguous ways that leave so much room for doubt? Never do you see someone spontaneously regrow a limb, bullet wounds magically close, heads re-attached, etc. Why so vague? Sounds like self confirmation bias to me.

Typical. You think things aren't worth talking about because you can't point to science to talk about it. That's human nature. And I'm not God. don't ask me why he performs miracles in certain ways. Ask him yourself. Speaking in tongues is nonsence? Millions of people are nonsence? You think they just decide, "Oh, I'm gonna speak a language that nobody else understands in front of a crowd of people". You think everything is science or it doesn't compute. Are you even listening to yourself?

" I haven't read much about Pontius Pilate, but I'd assume being a Roman official there would be a lot more reliable records of him, but him existing doesn't prove that Jesus existed."

How can you say that with a straight face? It's documentation here. It's not atlantis, numerous sources speak of Pontius Pilate. Anyone who deliberately tries to disprove at least the existance of Jesus has to be agnostic or atheist...which I can't change. But you if you can't prove Jesus's existance then subsequentially you can't disprove it either.

 

 





Ljink96 said:
WookieSquatch said:
Ljink96 said:
WookieSquatch said:
Ljink96 said:
RadiantDanceMachine said:
Ljink96 said:
asqarkabab said:
Mr.Playstation said:

Moses- Existed
Jesus- Existed
Abraham -Existed

They all talked about the same god and there was a period of 2000 years between Abraham and Jesus.

how you know that moses and abraham existed ??

jesus is another case

like Muhammad and all other prophets 

God exists because the world was not created automaticely

Well, we at least know Noah existed because they found the ark a while back. It had the exact same dimensions as described in the Bible. And I guess, if those people don't exist then the Roman empire didn't exist too? You can freaking visit Jesus's tomb. There has been water found in which one group of h20 is hydrophobic of another, hinting at water that was split by Moses.



Ugh, why do people propagate this nonsense? Please stop taking everything your religious friends tell you as gospel truth. There has been no ark found, this is not even debatable. It's yet another Ron Wyatt fraud.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/noahsark.asp

Even Answers in Genesis website tells you to stop spreading this bullshit:

https://answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2013/12/19/has-noahs-ark-been-found/

 



Even if these non-viable sources are right, you ignore the hard hitting points I mentioned about the Roman Empire and Jesus. This stuff is documented. Jesus wasn't fake. His miracles were documented. Speaking in tongues, it's real. It's the sign of the holy spirit living within you. You think millions of people just act like they all can speak a different tongue all of a sudden?

I've witnessed a friend, who I've never even thought would be demonic, have a spirit cast out of her body and when the pastor asked the demon what its name was, it spoke through her and said "Legion". I was scared as hell that day.

There was a recorded happening in which a teenager was hit by a vehicle and pronounced dead on the scene. His brain was on the freaking street. He was taken to the morgue where his mother, with prayer and power, called him back and sure enough he woke up and told his mother that he was sorry. The doctors and nurses ran out the room, in disbelief in what they saw.

I was born with a defect in which I could not urinate. It was destroying my body. The doctors had no idea what to do, all the treatments failed. But my mother told me that one night, she had been crying about my situation and was praying that a miracle would come my way and that night, she said a figure sat down on her bed and told her that I would have a wet diaper in the morning. Sure enough, she woke up and I no longer had the complication.

When my brother was born, the doctors said he wouldn't live to see a year of age. My parents were distraught but they called a good friend of theirs to pray for him. When the friend arrived, all of the newborn babies that were crying at the hospital...just stopped when he walked in. Every single one of them. He prayed for my brother and the complication resolved shortly there after. 

You can't tell me that God isn't real. There are things that not even science can prove.



 

You're right, no one can tell you that god isn't real because you can't prove a negative, but that's just about the only thing you're right about. You're not bringing up any hard hitting evidence at all, it's all claptrap pushed by religious zealots with no real science behind it.

The general consensus was that moses didn't exist. There is little to no evidence that Abraham existed. The Noah story was just a rip of of The Epic of Gilgamesh, which came way before the Noah story, and no, no one has found an ark. Jesus's existence is debateable, though the consensus seems to lean towards him existing.

If you want to believe for personal reasons that's cool, and no one can take that away from you, but don't try to bring all these made up facts to the table.

Why so heated? I'm not gonna sit here and act like an explosion created intelligent life. You ignore me again, you're increasingly ignorant. There are things that science CAN NOT prove and hasn't proven. "Jesus's existance is debatable". Are you kidding me? So, Pontius Pilate's existance is debatable too? He oversaw the crucifixion of Jesus. Who's posting facts here? Did I say...any factual sentences?

You're just cutting out the parts of my argument and pasting what you like. A complete biased tactic. How do you explain "Speaking in tongues"? Science? This tongue is what Jesus left before his departure in order to mark those who know the holy spirit. If all of my other anecdotes are false...even though doctors and scientests couldn't explain those happenings, please tell me how introns and exons, inhibitors and myofibrils, grey matter and white matter expalin this phenomenon? Please do. Or are you just going to ignore that too?

I am a believer in science. I see what it is and has done. But I know that there's things that it cannot prove because we lack the understanding and knowledge of a higher being.



 

Honestly, it frustrates me when I see people throwing out blatantly false information like that noahs ark existed and we've found it.

There is actually a lot of debate on the topic of whether or not Jesus existed, though as I stated the general consensus is that he probably did. I can send you some sources if you're interested.  I haven't read much about Pontius Pilate, but I'd assume being a Roman official there would be a lot more reliable records of him, but him existing doesn't prove that Jesus existed.

I didn't address speaking in tongues because I don't even think it's worth talking about. Do you have legitimate peer reviewed scientific studies that point to it being a genunine phenonmen, or just anectdotal evidence? Speaking in tongues is something that can be studied, and everything I've read points to it being nonsense.

Pretty much everythign you mentioned are just anectodotes, which is why I ignored them. If prayer is so effective why does it have such a low success rate? How come god is only willing to perform miracles in super ambiguous ways that leave so much room for doubt? Never do you see someone spontaneously regrow a limb, bullet wounds magically close, heads re-attached, etc. Why so vague? Sounds like self confirmation bias to me.

Typical. You think things aren't worth talking about because you can't point to science to talk about it. That's human nature. And I'm not God. don't ask me why he performs miracles in certain ways. Ask him yourself. Speaking in tongues is nonsence? Millions of people are nonsence? You think they just decide, "Oh, I'm gonna speak a language that nobody else understands in front of a crowd of people". You think everything is science or it doesn't compute. Are you even listening to yourself?

" I haven't read much about Pontius Pilate, but I'd assume being a Roman official there would be a lot more reliable records of him, but him existing doesn't prove that Jesus existed."

How can you say that with a straight face? It's documentation here. It's not atlantis, numerous sources speak of Pontius Pilate. Anyone who deliberately tries to disprove at least the existance of Jesus has to be agnostic or atheist...which I can't change. But you if you can't prove Jesus's existance then subsequentially you can't disprove it either.

 

 



 

So no science then? This is why I didn't bring these subjects up, there's not much to debate. I'm not even sure what your argument even is. A lot of people do it so it must be magic? There are non-magical explanations for it, why should I jump righ to magic?

I don't know what your problem is with my comments on Pontius Pilate. I just said I didn't know much about him, but that he's probably real. What's wrong with admitting I don't know something? I can certainly research it and get a better answer, but I don't think him existing proves that Jesus exists, so I didn't bother. I'm not even trying to disprove Jesus, I just said it's debateable. Personally I think a guy named Jesus (or whatever that translates to) probably existed, and he probably claimed to be a messiah, which wasn't at all unusual at the time as someone else pointed out. Beyond that, I'm skeptical.

 



JWeinCom said:
Snoopy said:
I find it more believable that something created this world to be honest then by luck everything happened in a specific order of random occurrences to create this world. Seriously, look at what scientists believe (which always changes) and see how crazy it is that all these things happen in a specific order to create us. The odds of this to be correct has to be in the same realm as winning the lottery over and over.

The results of you in particular being born are astronomical.  There are about 200 million sperm in the male ejaculation.  So right off the bat, you have a one in 200 million chance.  That sperm had to exist within the same month as the egg that created you.  To make the math easier, we'll call that one in 2 billion.  Of course, we have to factor in that a woman is only ovulating about one week of the month.  So, that's one in 8 billion now.  If we took into accounts years and stuff, that'd make it messier, so let's assume a 100% chance that your parents would have sex on the year you were born.

That's just the odds after the fact of your parents having sex.  We'll forget about the likelyhood of them meeting for now, cause I can't really quantify this.  But, the chances of each of your parents being born would have to be the same... So, that's now about one in 500 billion.  And of course, their parents had to be a certain combination of sperm and egg, so the odds are again multiplied by 8 billion.  So thats... 4 trillion... 32 trillion.... 240 trillion... One in 1.6 quadrillion....

So the odds of the particular lifeform known as "you" existing is at less than one in a quadrillion.  This is only going to your grandparent's generation, and assuming there is a 100% chance that all of your parents/grandparents/etc. will meet.  If we calculated the actual odds, starting from let's say the year 0 CE, I'm quite possitive the odds of your existence would be less than one in a centillion (one with 303 zeroes).  Like... way less...

So, you were incredibly incredibly lucky to be born.  Does that mean that there was a higher power orchestrating this?  Who picked out each sperm, played matchmaker for your parents, and their parents and so on?  I'm guessing that you think not.

This would be a weird thing to think, because it is only a lucky event from your perspective.  To the billions upon billions of upon billions of other potential children who could have been born, this was not a special occurence, or a particularly good occurence.  It was just a thing that happened.  The event only becomes lucky when you assume that you being created is the end goal.

And, so it is with the universe.  If you assume that the goal of the universe was the creation of this particular form of life, then it seems incredibly lucky.  But, this is an incredibly human biased perspective.  

What if we don't assume that humanity existing and thriving was the end goal?  Then, it doesn't seem so lucky anymore.  If we start from the creation of Earth, there are potentially billions of other animals that can be the dominant species of the planet at this point in time.  This isn't a particularly lucky outcome for them.  Going back further, if the universe was created in a different way, it may have been possible for trillions and trillions of other lifeforms to arise.  This is not a lucky outcome for them.

Even this is biased towards life.  As living beings, we naturally think life is great.  But, considering the size and scope of the universe, one particular planet having little weird things posting on internet forums doesn't seem very significant.  

 

To sum it up, I'll give one more example.  The odds of getting a royal flush in poker are about one in 30,000.  The odds of getting the 3 of clubs, five of diamonds, Jack of spades, 8 of hearts, and the 6 of hearts is exactly the same.  So, why do we consider it so much more lucky to get a royal flush than that hand?  Because we are biased towards our own success.

The universe existing as it does is a royal flush for humanity.  But, outisde of humanity, it's simply one hand that could be dealt.  It is no more or less special than any other hand that may have been dealt.

 

Yes, but in my case I was created on purpose by my parents (going by their story lol). Chances are especially with technology and resources to help my parents that someone was going to be born regardless. Yes, it was lucky that I was born, but more than likely someone is going to be born because it was done on purpose. I just can't see the universe (going by big bang theory) and earth being created with all the life forms by chance. It seems like everything had to be made on purpose. My opinion anyways.



Snoopy said:

Yes, but in my case I was created on purpose by my parents (going by their story lol). Chances are especially with technology and resources to help my parents that someone was going to be born regardless. Yes, it was lucky that I was born, but more than likely someone is going to be born because it was done on purpose. I just can't see the universe (going by big bang theory) and earth being created with all the life forms by chance. It seems like everything had to be made on purpose. My opinion anyways.

Well, yeah.  That's kind of the point.  SOMEONE was going to be born.  Since it is you, you'd probably see this as a good or lucky event.  To the neutral observer, it's just something that happened.  Your birth was no more special than any other child that may have been born.  

Same thing with life in the universe.  You're starting, I assume, with the conception that life is a good thing.  And you seem to be assuming that a life sustaining galaxy was a goal.  But if you look at it from a neutral point of view (that a life containing galaxy is not inherently better than a non-life producing one) then it is just one outcome. It is no more or less likely than any other universe that may have existed instead. It's not special or lucky in anyway.



Snoopy said:
I find it more believable that something created this world to be honest then by luck everything happened in a specific order of random occurrences to create this world. Seriously, look at what scientists believe (which always changes) and see how crazy it is that all these things happen in a specific order to create us. The odds of this to be correct has to be in the same realm as winning the lottery over and over.

 


Well, scientists not 'always change their believes', they prove or disprove theories, improve and combine those theories. Like searching the link between quantum mechanics and the theory of relativity.

 

And that 'it's more believable' or basically way more easy is basically it. Religion is basically the universal solution for problems and questions you either just have no explanation for or just don't like the other explanations.

Like:

'What happens when i'm dead? '

'Nothin...'

'Oh, that sucks. I want my existence to keep on in a shiny nice warm place where everyone i already miss is'

Thats it. A nice warm thought. To not being egoistic you might use the excuse that someone else that died now is at a better place, let's call it heaven, because you get the option to join him.

Ad some decent society rules to that recipe like don't  ya dare to kill someone, insert a nice excuse like except he/she is a reeeeeaaaally bad person and everythings fine.

Not getting to that damn afterlife might be a more or less good reason for some people not to do the bad things. If that's not bad enough we put some torture porn on the menu: You'll be on the BBQ alive, without actually dying or getting inconscious or, actually eternal pain.

Now we're getting a little mad:
Ain't believe me? BBQ.

Different believes? Ok, live BBQ and than afterlive BBQ...

 

It gives us a nice, warm feeling that everything happened by intent. Like oh that terrible car accident must've been higher intent because of 'insert random stupid reason' or she was such a lovely girl god wanted her to be with him. Latter one sounds way better than she did of leukemia because of DNA mutations, so no higher intent.


Well, think about that: World releigions could actually totally different then they are today. Of the global player religions three are abrahamitic. The religious landscape could look totally different if some points in history had played out differently. Yep, i know, someone now will 150% for sure explain that exactly that happened because that guy is actually the god.

Well, if things had played out different, would that god actually exist at all?

 

We are probably the only species on this planet that plans in longer terms and thinks about it's own existence. so we like to have explanations. Like how was the world created. Preferably explanations we understand. A concept of god is actually easier to understand and nicer than what actually happened with the big bang or quantum mechanics.

And yes, you'll probably use it to explain what hopefully will happen when you're dead (cause you basically just don't want to be nonexistant) and all those other things.

Does anything prove gods existence? Nope. Actuelly not, at least not in a scientific or even objective way.