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Forums - Gaming Discussion - "Tales of" series has really gone downhill

DuckDuckGoo on 05 January 2016
Xxain said:
Nem said:

 


Tales has a fanbase of 1 million gamers in Japan. Its not that the base is small. It's that they are failing to capture it. It's exactly the opposite. Its because they changed the game to a state where its hadly recognisable by fans that its falling from grace. You say that the solution is to westernise or appeal to those that don't enjoy JRPG's? How does that work?

Poor star ocean. I enjoyed SO4 for alot but it was slammed in the west. I don't think SO5 will be any different.

 

Im not saying westernize it? Tales leader has made it quite clear that he only values the opinions of the diehard Japanese Tales fans and aims the series at them, but there are other players as well who may not be as complacent as the diehards and when you shut the door on all those criticism because they're not your diehards fans your shutting out room grow. 

  In regards to Star Ocean, it'll definitely do better than any Tales game. 

That is very closed minded and part of the problem, but he has taken away what made the game good. Not only has Tales gone down hill, but much like FF (which will always remain popular) it took away features and ruined the UI. They took away the world map and transportaion like animals, airships and regular ships which Abyss had. The UI is terrible for Zestiria and there is no quest tracker or any way to indicate what direction you need to go in to get to your next destination. The game is very bland and linear eventhough they tried to make it open, but it still suffers from the cooridoor Xilia syndrome. He should value the opinions of the game's fans world wide, because it will continue to hurt the series.





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Super_Boom on 05 January 2016

I guess we sorta had this chat a few months ago, but now that I've beaten the game and you've made a fancy new thread, I figure I'll reply (or vent) again. :P

LuckyTrouble said:

Now I know I may get some flack for not liking at the very least Xillia, but bear with me. I thought Xillia was a huge step back. The battle system was simplified to overpowered combination attacks, the story was basically a rehash of Symphonia with a few tweaks, and good god was most of the character development bad. I played over halfway through Xillia and ended up dropping it, half out of boredom material collecting in yet another large, bland field, and half because I wasn't sure how long I could go without having to harm myself just to endure the terrible characters.

This is the only modern Tales title I've played, and honestly...I agree with a lot of your complaints. I had high hopes at first, and it did a lot of things right, but towards the end...not so much.

For me, the combat wasn't bad...but I would definitely get tired of it a lot faster than the previous games, which the exception of maybe Phantasia because of how dated it is. I found myself over-using link combos to speed up battles, because they seemed to take a lot longer than I was used to. Sometimes I want to advance the story and not fight a million stupid bees. Symphonia and Abyss may have both had this problem...but I honestly don't recall it bothering me as much in those games (having played both relatively recently).

I had some serious problems with the story...though for a different reason than you. When the game started, and I had the option to choose Jude or Milla's story...and well, I decided to be unique and choose the girl's story first. I didn't read anything online ahead of time...so I had no idea her story was intended for the 2nd playthrough. Some huge scenes just felt absolutely phoned in, because the game expected me to have played Jude's story first. Cline's death just sorta happened, Muzet randomly shows up with Jude, and oh...Alvin being from Elympios was just randomly mentioned offhand. Because it's not like he's an important character or anything. It's honestly a bit ridiculous how none of the developers noticed such a horrid design flaw. If you want your fans to play the game a certain way...make sure they play it that way. Ugh.

Character development was also pretty poor for the side cast. Leia, Rowen, and Elize had some sidequests that fleshed them out a little more...but not really enough for me to care about them for the most part. Alvin really frustrated me for most of the game, because I thought his constant betrayals made the rest of the party look like idiots, but I did think his final betrayal was well done, at least in terms of writing, and I'd argue he got some solid character development before the end. Though again...I was forced to watch a lot of this on Youtube...because Milla's story completely ignores this section of the game. *facepalms*

Jude and Milla on the other hand...I thought they both were very well setup for character development...and I suppose if you're not a shipper like me, you'd probably be satisfied with the direction they went. Problem is...I AM a hardcore shipper. I was on the edge of my seat expecting them to get together. Sure they were opposites, but that's why the dynamic was so interesting to me. Over the course of the game, Milla helped Jude to mature, and Jude helped Milla become a little more human. Sounds platonic when I write it like that...and if was written that way, I wouldn't be complaining. But it wasn't written that way. There was obvious romantic development built up between the two of them, with Jude actually admitting to his feelings, and Milla beginning to react significantly different upon learning Jude's feelings. For the game to end with them being seperate for no reason other than closure was incredibly dissapointing to me. Especially considering that Milla's decision to take Maxwell's place was rendered utterly pointless by Maxwell reforming. And no...I don't consider the game's ridiculous pseudo-science as a reason at all; hell Maxwell even offered to turn Milla human before he faded away.

I had a few other complaints, like most of the costumes being DLC and an absolutely horrid dub, but past that, I didn't have too much else to complain about. I'm a big Monster Hunter fan, so I liked the collectibles and shop upgrades, which I can definitely see being an annoyance for a lot of people. The set pieces were nice, a lot of the skits made me laugh, and I liked it enough to beat all the sidequests, and even go for some extra trophies. Overall, I'd probably rate it a 7/10...just for the mostly bland side cast, poor narrative choices, and my shipping woes. It did do a lot of things right...but I just really liked Symphonia and Abyss a lot more.

Back to your OP, it's a bit dissapointing to hear your thoughts on Xillia 2 and Zestiria, as I've found I agreed with you a lot on Xillia. I still plan to play both...as I like to come to my own conclusions, so I should know for sure if I totally agree with your OP whenever I finally get around to playing them. I do think that if you like the series, you shouldn't be afraid to be critical of it, so I wouldn't worry about coming across as nit-picky or oversensitive. The series definitely deserves better than 'good enough'.



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Spade on 05 January 2016

I enjoyed Xillia and Xillia 2, but man, I just couldn't get into Zesteria (didn't give it much of a chance). I'll try again in the Summer, but they need to quit milking the series.



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Nem on 06 January 2016
NiKKoM said:
There is a serious lack of love for Vesperia in this thread.. Is it because it's only in English on the 360?

 

Whatever made you think that? I wish the Tales team had stuck to that engine for the later games. Vesperia still looks better than every Tales game that came after it.



Nem on 06 January 2016
Soriku said:
N


There is a lot of wrong in this post...

Symphonia and Abyss are really different. They come from the same old school Tales design school with the chibi characters, fixed camera angles, and old school world map...but other than that they have a lot of differences (story, cast, dungeon design, world map design). What is really similar is the amount of sidequests, costumes, and minigames available.

Moving on...

"The character basically spams a string of attacks and all you do is sidestep or weave an arte in there."

That's basically every action game. Attack, move away/block, attack again. Rinse and repeat. No you don't lose any control. The battles are controlled the same way they've always been, just with different subsystems.

"Not only that, but all these artes didnt feel rewarding because in that game you needed to attack at the same time as your party member to see a damage reward."

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. What do you mean you have to attack at the same time as a party member? You realize you can solo fights with the damage value appearing just fine?

"The other thing that disappeared was the world map. This is an effort to follow FFX and that series as a whole."

Old school world maps haven't been a thing for console JRPGs for YEARS. The only one I can think of lately is in Ninokuni. I like them but it's silly to knock Tales for this when pretty much no RPG is using them anymore. What you should be knocking is the lazy copy/paste structure of the fields in Xillia. They improved the fields in Zestiria though.

"But, a nasty suprise awaited us. The field in between zones are now vast and filled with nothing but collectables. The story still progresses slowly because of this"

Xillia has one of the best paced Tales stories in the series. Probably helps it's shorter (but still feels complete and it's a good length with sidequests) than Symphonia, Abyss, Vesperia, etc. You can just run past the fields, and collect/fight what you want along the way. They even give you a speed boost early in the game.

"The battles became easier than ever and end with you doing just a combo or two unless you are fighting a boss."

Xillia isn't that hard (but apparently I had an easier time than a lot of other people going by what I've read) but every Tales game is game is easy if you don't bump the difficulty. Hell Graces which you knock for having limited control is one of the harder entries. You can pull off simple combos on most encounters in every Tales games.

"The realistic models had difficulty portraying the anime style the series is know for and looked like a step down."

Not true at all, the Xillia games--especially when the first game came out--had some rather nice models and locales even if the colors were a bit subdued. But some places still had really nice colors and were downright beautiful (just needed some better IQ but it is a PS3 game). The models are certainly much better than the old chibi models. What was the last anime you've seen with chibi models as the standard (ie. not comedy scenes)?

"And not only that but fans saying the Graces combat is good also gave them the wrong feedback."

If lots of people like Graces' combat, how is the feedback wrong exactly?

"Comes Xillia 2 and the same problems remain, plus they add a mute character and a frustrating game progression system in the debt system besides re-use of the same areas. Sales suffered."

The same problems don't remain for the combat. They improved it and upped the difficulty across the board. Xillia 2 has the best combat system in the series. Btw the debt system is really overblown when you can just go out, fight a giganto monster (or two? they're fun fights anyway) and you have enough money to pay your debt. You don't need to grind or anything.

Also Ludger is mute but you have 8 other playable party members, as well as Elle. The dialogue isn't exactly hurt by this decision.

And the sales were still fine. It wasn't going to outsell Xillia 1 with the hype behind it.

"From that the tales team concludes: It must be the combat! Come Zesteria, lets go back to the graces system but with all the same problems still intact.

Uhh no. That's now how it went. They already made two XIllia games with 2D combat. They tried something different with Zestiria while taking into consideration the positive feedback they received from Graces. It doesn't matter if you personally did not like Graces. Many other people did. The new battle system in Zestiria uses Graces at its base but it still has a lot of differences. Zestiria has no CC, you can transform, the weakness system is different, there is a flexible free run option now, status effects are handled differently, you can swap out members at any time, there are a lot of complicated relationships between artes, and so on.

"Big boring fields of Nothing. Spammy uncontrolable combat"

Zestiria's fields have chests, Normins, Crucibles (arenas), Mutant Hellions, and dungeons scattered around. There's enough there and you can get around them pretty fast. People always seem to complain about empty fields (not just in Tales) but what are you expecting? As for the combat, again bump the difficulty. Let's see where spamming gets you.

"It was the worst of both worlds Xillia and Graces put together."

Complete nonsense. It has better fields and music, as well as content compared to Xillia 1 to list a few positives.

"The series has been declining in sales and is aproaching dangerous levels once more."

lol. Zestiria didn't sell as well as Xillia but it's also like the fifth Tales game on the PS3. It didn't even sell badly, and it did pretty well in the West (110k sales on Steam alone for example). Let's wait and see how Berseria and a nextgen exclusive Tales does. It's nowhere near dangerous levels, dont exaggerate.

Btw I don't see any reason for SO5 to be bomb. It seems to be well talked about online, and SO3 and SO4 sold pretty well. Those are older games but I wouldn't expect a bomb for SO5.

John2290 said:
Pity, with Zesteria on the ps4 here in my spot, it is my first door to the series. Im put off by the reviews,,

 

If you haven't played a Tales and don't know what to expect then there's no harm in picking it up.

Alternatively the older games haven't gone anywhere. You don't always have to start with the latest entry.

 

Sigh... you can just say you disagree instead of making an overbloated post where that is what you say in other words.

Also, of course Symphonia and Abyss have different characters, towns, story and subtle differences in the combat, but the basis is the same. I don't even get what the hell you are getting at.

So, i do think that fans like you are the reason the series has arrived to this point. I also wonder if you even played the older titles because your love for the new ones is disproportional.

I will try to reply to some points, though this will just result in a i disagree with you, wich was what you said.

 

Combat. Thanks for proving me right that they are making it generic. As for control. Not even close. I mean everyone can say what they will, but there is a reason 2D fighters are more popular than 3D fighters, for example, or why 2D platformers are better than 3D platformers. Its easier to control, theres more precision.

In Graces, the damage you deal increases exponentially when you combo with your party members. I'm sure you know this. I just don't know why you are pretending you don't.

World maps haven't been a thing because someone randomly decided they shouldnt be, much like the random people that thought survival horror wasn't a thing anymore. It is a bad decision. They are quality systems that benefit's RPG's in gameflow and exploration. It cuts on the fat of traveling from A to B has to be an exercise on boredom. Their loss was literally a step back for JRPG's. The only acceptable alternative is a fully blown open world like Xenoblade's. But even that fails to convey the sense of scale a world map does.

Xillia does not have good pacing AT ALL. Why don't you go replay symphonia and compare how fast things move along. Also time how long it takes you to get to places before teleports. Also, count how many times the same envyronment is used. It's this kind of comment that makes me think you are totally not honest about any of this.

I will also repeat. The Graces combat is not good and SOME say it is because its very flashy and looks cool in motion. It's bad feedback because its not a good combat system and make no mistake, it WILL kill the series. Without the 2D combat, Tales is just another generic JRPG.

Xillia 2 combat is good besides the old problem of stuff dieing in one combo. But the fact that it needed replacing was the Tales team conclusion, not mine. And, its obviously a bad one. We can also see how your stance in playing these games is different from a normal player. "going out and killing some big monsters is not a big deal". Yes! It is! Because you are forced to do it. You are forced to do side quests to advance the story. Guess what, content you do so you can acess the content you want to do is BORING! Notbto mention how Nova constantly pesters you about it. For anyone wanting an idea, its very much like the FFX-2 structure.

Its the same exact problem the Yakuza series has. It needs to force you to play all those terrible mini-games so you can advance the story. Stuff you are beeing forced to do to acess what is really fun, ISNT good game design. Imagine that in a fighter, before every match you needed to play a rythm mini-game. That stuff is dumb and does not make for good games. Good games focus on giving you a smooth enjoyable experience without chore. In Uncharted, in the middle of the game you are not forced to go grocery shopping between every mission. That would totally ruin the pace of the game.

You know, i'm going to stop here cause i'm ranting. I'm sorry, but i don't think you understand game design and it is obvious you are different in wich you don't mind having to do some chores to get to a little morcel. That may be alright for you, but it isnt for many of us.

Tales was and deserves to be better than that. If what you have now is enough for you then don't worry. It can only get better if they listen to reason. 



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bigtakilla on 06 January 2016

I fell out with Xillia too. Sad because I really loved Graces F (the battle system and character skits were fantastic).

Symphony is of course the best of the series, so I also get a lot of people who say that's what got them into it.



arcane_chaos on 06 January 2016

Symphonia is most likely everyone's favorite Tales of games, probably will never be topped

I won't say tales has gone down hill since I enjoyed Vesperia, Xillia, Hearts R and Graces F(mostly for it's combat, best combat system to date) I Think what has taken it "downhill" is its art direction; ever since Vesperia they totally abandoned the usually over world to this barren fields with monsters. Vesperia had the old school Tales feels with some good looking graphics. I'm really surprised NB stepped away from this route, Xillia 1&2, Graces F, and Zesteria could've greatly benefited from Vesperia art direction(though Zesteria looked good in some areas

though I would say Zesteria antagonist(s) were straight horrible



outlawauron on 07 January 2016
arcane_chaos said:
Symphonia is most likely everyone's favorite Tales of games, probably will never be topped

I won't say tales has gone down hill since I enjoyed Vesperia, Xillia, Hearts R and Graces F(mostly for it's combat, best combat system to date) I Think what has taken it "downhill" is its art direction; ever since Vesperia they totally abandoned the usually over world to this barren fields with monsters. Vesperia had the old school Tales feels with some good looking graphics. I'm really surprised NB stepped away from this route, Xillia 1&2, Graces F, and Zesteria could've greatly benefited from Vesperia art direction(though Zesteria looked good in some areas

though I would say Zesteria antagonist(s) were straight horrible

Symphonia is the most popular Tales in the West, but you'd be surprised that fans are pretty split about it (especially with the re-releases). Vesperia is my personal favorite of the series.



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Nem on 07 January 2016
Soriku said:

 

Just saying I disagree doesn't say anything. That's not a discussion and there were things in your post that had to be addressed.

"Also, of course Symphonia and Abyss have different characters, towns, story and subtle differences in the combat, but the basis is the same. I don't even get what the hell you are getting at."

You can really like Symphonia but not like Abyss and vice versa. I've seen this opinion a lot regarding these two ames. I think most people's experience about Tales really hinges on how much they like the story and cast, but there are enough differences between those two games that you can like one but not the other - even from a game design perspective. Like the dungeons in Symphonia and Abyss just don't feel the same, for example. Also there are big differences in the combat between Symphonia and Abyss. Like Free Run and Fields of Fonons.

"So, i do think that fans like you are the reason the series has arrived to this point. I also wonder if you even played the older titles because your love for the new ones is disproportional."

Outside of combat feedback, the Tales team really seems like it's doing whatever the fuck the want in terms of designing games. I wouldn't blame the fans.

I played Destiny, Eternia, Symphonia, and Abyss for "older titles". I think the biggest problems the Tales series has now is shoddy dungeon design (which was better in Zestiria but still not nearly at the level of a game like Symphonia), bland fields (again improved in Zestiria), and bad animations (especially in Xillia 2, at times). Maybe lack of content but I think there's still enough there. I think the last Tales game with tons and tons of content was Graces.

"Combat. Thanks for proving me right that they are making it generic. As for control. Not even close. I mean everyone can say what they will, but there is a reason 2D fighters are more popular than 3D fighters, for example, or why 2D platformers are better than 3D platformers. Its easier to control, theres more precision."

Generic maybe in comparison to other Tales titles. Again I think Xillia 2 has the best combat system in the series, it has a sideview angle, but I never felt Graces or Zestiria were harder to control. They're not quite as good but for different reasons. I think the biggest highlights of XIllia 2 for me was the really flexible free run, highly improved aerial combat, and weakness system.

"In Graces, the damage you deal increases exponentially when you combo with your party members. I'm sure you know this. I just don't know why you are pretending you don't."

Well duh, that's how it is in every Tales game. More people attacking = more damage. That's just common sense. You can still do crazy damage on your own. Why is this flaw?

"World maps haven't been a thing because someone randomly decided they shouldnt be, much like the random people that thought survival horror wasn't a thing anymore. It is a bad decision. They are quality systems that benefit's RPG's in gameflow and exploration. It cuts on the fat of traveling from A to B has to be an exercise on boredom. Their loss was literally a step back for JRPG's. The only acceptable alternative is a fully blown open world like Xenoblade's. But even that fails to convey the sense of scale a world map does."

Developers wanted to make realistic worlds with realistic maps. World maps aren't realistic at all.

"Xillia does not have good pacing AT ALL. Why don't you go replay symphonia and compare how fast things move along. Also time how long it takes you to get to places before teleports. Also, count how many times the same envyronment is used. It's this kind of comment that makes me think you are totally not honest about any of this."

Pacing wise the only thing Symphonia has over Xillia is a faster paced beginning. But Xillia's second half, especially when the war starts, doesn't let up. Symphonia still has slower moments - Xillia just continues to escalate until you reach Elympios, then it slows down a bit, but then quickly picks back up. I never felt the pacing was this good in a Tales game before Xillia.

"I will also repeat. The Graces combat is not good and SOME say it is because its very flashy and looks cool in motion. It's bad feedback because its not a good combat system and make no mistake, it WILL kill the series. Without the 2D combat, Tales is just another generic JRPG."

Even with a 3D angle, Tales combat is not comparable to anything else except Star Ocean...and even then SO subsytems are way different that they can't even be compared that closely if you do in depth. SO5 is going to come out with its seamless battles and 3D camera angle and it's still going to be vastly different from Berseria.

"Xillia 2 combat is good besides the old problem of stuff dieing in one combo. But the fact that it needed replacing was the Tales team conclusion, not mine. And, its obviously a bad one. We can also see how your stance in playing these games is different from a normal player. "going out and killing some big monsters is not a big deal". Yes! It is! Because you are forced to do it. You are forced to do side quests to advance the story. Guess what, content you do so you can acess the content you want to do is BORING! Notbto mention how Nova constantly pesters you about it. For anyone wanting an idea, its very much like the FFX-2 structure."

What makes you think Xillia's system was replaced? They try something different with each game man. Like in Berseria they're allowing you to map artes to each button now and fully control the camera. We're not sure what subsystems are in place yet. Berseria takes place in the same universe as Zestiria so it makes sense they're using a somewhat similar system. Maybe in the next Tales after they'll go back to a 2D sideview, who knows? Even in Xillia 2 they took some feedback from Graces.

Killing one simple boss monster is not a big deal. They're well designed encounters, it takes little time, and anyway I thought the combat system was a draw in this series? At least they're not forcing you to clear out mobs, or collect things. There are more boring ways they could've thought of to have you progress. Taking the time each chapter to kill one boss is really inoffensive. If you're bored by something like that, why are you playing the game at this point? So basically you're not interested in the combat anymore? Or would you rather fight the standard mobs in the field? Because as soon as you move on to that next field or dungeon, that's exactly what you're going to do. And frankly I'd rather fight the boss monsters which are much more fun.

 

Fair enough. You are entitled to your views.

I just want to say that in Graces the damage you do when comboing with party member scales quite dramatically (not even comparable to other titles in the series... maybe bar Zesteria cause i havent gone too far on it yet to check) and is essential for beating the difficult encounters. I totally don't think you do good damage by yourself on that game. Its totally unrewarding. If you don't combo with others the battle will take a very long time. Its a very unbalanced game in terms of numbers.



NobleTeam360 on 07 January 2016

Idk, it feels like they've turned Tales of into a yearly franchise at this point. Or at least it feels like a new Tales of game is releasing every year . I got fatigued on Tales of after Xillia on PS3.