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Star wars prequel haters hit a new level of low.

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mountaindewslave said:
DivinePaladin said:
All 6 movies are very much flawed, but that's the only part of your comment I have issue with. I love the Star Wars movies but objectively they're all (minus Empire) pretty average if not worse than that. But I'm not gonna say anything more because this thread is about to explode with OT fanatics tearing you to shreds for liking something different.


the original Star Wars (A New Hope) average? are you kidding me?

maybe you could use a rewatch because that movie is anything but average or ordinary. Its dialogue is timeless, it has one of the best casts of all time, there are NO pointless scenes and the tension and buildup is absolutely perfect

I understand not LIKING the film but to objectively watch Star Wars (the original) and then claim that its 'flawed' is absurd. unless you're claiming that the whole Western/Space Opera genere is flawed, which would be a silly thing to say

I've watched every movie in one day, and I've seen Star Wars dozens of times. That doesn't mean it's anything more than average. Remember that it was conceived as both one movie and twelve movies, and that as one movie it was left with a horrible cliffhanger ending. Remember that Luke and Leia were supposed to be lovers. Remember that Han was a cold-blooded killer who then decided because plot to become a good guy (stealing his ally's poon/eventual twin sister in the process). Remember that most of it was one-dimensional writing.

 

Watch it without your clear bias having watched it in the scope of what the series is today, and watch it for what it was when it released. A revolutionary movie for the genre, but one that was quickly rendered moot by its direct sequel. Moreover, the revolutionary movies sort of tend  to suck overall; look at what Avatar did for 3D and what people at first claimed it did for Sci-Fi, and look at its standing now with most fans - two completely different responses. We like to see it as more today because of what the series became but it was, when you look at it with historical empathy and ignore the revisions Lucas did from the very start, pretty meh. Doesn't mean I love it any less, and it doesn't mean you have to agree from an opinion stance - which I'm sure you won't.



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97alexk said:

okay, so i was discussing some things on the internet, and i have a couple of friends who agree with me that the prequels are good movies. Now take in account star wars episode 3 is my fave movie of all time. But even the mindless prequel haters agreed that the lightsaber fights in the prequels were awsome. But now comes a whole new level of pathetic xD they start to bash on it too, saying it looks clownish, and tooo choreographed. Seriously? Do you know jedis? they are trained since young kids, in lightsaber combat, they have the force. and the lightsaber fights looked awsome in the prequels, but what dont they do to give another reason to hate on those movies xD

They are also saying, original had more emotional lightsaber fights, so on and so forth. Dont get me wrong, i love the originals, Episode 6 is my second fave movie. But it sounds very very try-hard to make an convincing argument. It feels like they are just saying that to protect the originals and to bash more on the prequels. Prequel haters are preatty much brainwashed by media and weird arguments told by nostalgic adults imo.

Though there are some actual critisms that are fair enough. Jar jar binks might be one. 

idk if these forums are like the other ones regarding this topic (i hope not).

If so, can someone give me a valid intelligent counter argument that actually makes sense. And it might seem i have a slight bias or something, but i really dont. I love all star wars movies the same, and if i see a valid critism against any of the movies, ofc i probably agree with it. but for now, i think all 6 movies are preatty much flawless.

 

Prepare for a massive wall of text :p

I never thought the prequels were as terrible as people made them out to be, but I mostly didn't like them all that much... Episode 3 was good though, just not (in my opinion) great.

It's rather undeniable that the light saber battles were far more impressive and inventive in the prequels, from darth maul's two sided saber to general grievous's four lighsaber insanity. I will say, though, that there was definitely enough weight and emotion in two of the original battles to put them at the top with the best of the prequels. While the prequels had many massive battles with a dozen or so Jedi and they were undeniably cool, I feel the lightsaber is used to dramatic effect best when it's between two or three people going at it. Thus, here's the four best (I can't rank them) fights in my opinion, with context and emotional baggage in mind in chronological order:

1. I would say of the four I'm listing this had me the least concerned about the outcome as I already knew Obi wan would be fine (I realize it's unfair to the movie, but that was part of the viewing experience) and we'd only gotten to know Qui-Gon for one movie (not terribly attached to the character). Darth Maul, likewise, was an awesome antagonist for whom there just didn't seem to be enough build up. I suppose the best way to put it is, with the other three in mind, this one did not feel as if the fate of the entire galaxy hung in the balance.

That said, the fight was epic to watch (Darth maul was just incredible), and the tension was palpable as the two Jedi kept trying to carefully probe maul's defenses. I have mixed feelings about those force fields as, while they expertly displayed the difference in personality between Qui-Gon and Darth Maul (meditating and angrily pacing respectively), it seemed kinda like a cheap mechanism to separate Obi Wan from Qui-Gon.

What made the fight, then, was one of the most epic scores John Williams has ever composed playing in the background (Duel of Fates). The pace and tension of the music really lent a sense of significance to the fight and, in my mind, it was every bit as important as the actual fight and context. Still very cool, though I think the music largely saved it and it doesn't measure up to the following three.

 

2. This one should be obvious: the climactic battle of the prequel trilogy between Obi-Wan and Anakin. The music, again, is superb, but this time there's no misgivings about how important this fight truly is. The setting on mustafar, with the world literally exploding and burning around them (a not-very-subtle reflection of Anakin's mindset), was undeniably cool. The fight itself was likely the best of all six movies. What really made this for me, though, was the participants (two of arguably the three most important characters in the franchise) while they were both in their primes.

While people like to (usually justifiably) rag on the acting in the prequels, I have to say that the acting of Hayden Christensen and Ewan McGregor was superb throughout the fight. The dialogue was often genuinely moving (Obi Wan pleading with anakin, for instance), and while some seem to think he was kinda hammy in his acting, I think Hayden captured the warped mind of Anakin perfectly as he, having embraced the dark side, became blinded and consumed by hate. Really, watching the last of anakin burn away as he absolutely loses his mind during his transformation into a Sith Lord went about the only way that it could go; I don't understand the complaints. Overall, this duel was one of the best scenes of any Star Wars movie.

 

3. The next fight worth remembering for me is the first lightsaber duel between Luke and Darth Vader in the Empire Strikes Back. This one has perhaps my favorite setting, as the massive, vacuous interior of cloud city really struck home the emotions an ill-prepared and outclassed Luke must have felt as he tried to confront Vader. Unlike the previous two, this fight almost had a "Jaws" feel to it, and it might be my favorite because of it.

Luke, completely alone against the galaxy's greatest villain, walked around in the quiet, dark interior of Cloud City as a hidden Vader played mind games with him. Whereas the previous two used music to heighten the emotion of the scene, this one accomplishes as much and more with silence. All you can hear are the steps, the breathing, the gusting winds, and the menacing hum of the lightsabers.

Take all of that and throw in the fighting, hand cutting, revelation that most people not German who missed the trailer didn't see coming, and choice of suicide over betrayal, and I have to say this duel is both unique and has a kind of maturity I don't think the others can match.

 

4. The last, then, is Luke vs Vader round 2 in Return of the Jedi. I've always loved this one primarily due to the context and, with the prequels in mind, it has almost gained even more significance. This battle is fought by a determined, older, wiser Luke who is looking to redeem his father, and it takes place directly in front of the man who set all of these events in motion, emperor Palpatine.

Much like the previous duel, this one employs many stretches of music-free dialogue, which again achieves more in establishing the isolation and feel of the scene than music really could. The intriguing aspect of this fight is that most of the scene is spent avoiding it, with Luke knowing giving in to his anger would leave himself open to the influences of Palpatine and Vader showing the slightest signs of affection for Luke as the Palpatine eggs both on.

What makes this fight for me is, honestly, just the twenty second stretch of the fight when Luke, after hearing Vader threaten leia, absolutely loses it and attacks Vader with everything he has.  The music finally picks up again and makes it clear that this is the climactic, culminating event of the trilogy (I really think it was perfect). As for the fight, I have to say that realistic, angry sword fighting with a proper approach and footwork is, in my mind, dramatically superior to the crazy jumping and twirling. Really, as cool as that can be to watch, it often just distracts from the moment. "Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing", essentially. This is why my favorite movie sword fight of all time was the end duel of Rob Roy; flashy lights and exaggerated movements cannot establish the kind of tension that a fight grounded in reality can.

That said, I think those fifteen to twenty seconds of an angry, practiced assault on Vader, complete with footwork, is my favorite twenty second span of any of the movies. There were no whirling bodies, extra sabers etc; just the two most important characters finally determining the fate of the Galaxy. The fighting was great, the music perfect, the context unmatched by the others, and most importantly, it was a battle that would see both losing should either actually win. Luke came within one swing of the saber of becoming his father, but he managed to redeem both himself and his father by coming to his senses and fighting his more violent impulses.

In the end, I think this is what Lucas forgot in making the prequels. The lightsabers and force were undeniably cool, but that alone isn't what made people love the originals or their fights. When you focus on character development, making them endearing and three dimensional, we'll be properly invested when you throw action our way. The fights, after all, should be a mechanism or a narrative device, not the main plot point. While they can be the climax, they shouldn't be the focus; we loved those brief fights in the originals because we enjoyed the journey and cared about the characters. Somersaults and double sided sabers cannot make up for quality character development, acting, and narrative pacing. To put it simply, if Luke had never jumped 15 feet high and fought merely with a normal sword, people would still be cheering him on. When you're movie is done right, a 30 second fight can be more memorable than 15 minutes of saber-wielding gymnastics.

Those are my four, anyway. I commend anyone who actually managed to read this whole thing... I just thought it was an interesting question and had some fun formulating my opinion. :)



I'll ask the question, what IS good? X-Men, Batman, Aliens, Dragonball Z, Memento, The Walking Dead, Final Fantasy? If people love it, a person can break it down.

With the prequels, good or bad, I can watch them over and over and over again along with the rest of the Saga and enjoy it every time. That's gotta count for something.

I'm a huge Batman, Superman, Ninja Turtle, etc. fan. Most, if not all, of the things I enjoy have entries that I would rather never watch again. Star Wars doesn't. It resonates with me.



Twitter: @d21lewis  --I'll add you if you add me!!

d21lewis said:
Robert_Downey_Jr. said:

they sin good movies.  I love their work and honest trailers but they're going to insult the film regardless of quality.

I know.

And for the record, despite me normally having amazing taste in movies, I actually enjoyed all the Iron Man films. Even the second one.  You just hurt me by attacking Star Wars so I lashed out. Sorry. I'm calm, now.

That's cool and I enjoy Iron Man 2 as well I always watch it leading up to the newest Marvel film premiere



I am Iron Man

Robert_Downey_Jr. said:
coolbeans said:

Acting certainly, but writing?  There's a lot of shit, whether it be stupidity or pacing, within IM 2+3 that plummets to whatever level you're considering for the prequels if we're trying to act "objective" about this.

yes writing.  There's no sand monologue or yippies in Iron Man 2 and 3.  Also quit trying to put Iron Man 2 and 3 on the same level as each other.  2 is clearly inferior.  The only people who act like 3 is a bad film at all are the ones who are pissed at the Mandarin twist because Marvel outsmarted them and hid it from the marketing team because god forbid anyone actually conceal their twist instead of revealing it a la Terminator Genesis (not spelling it their way)

Ok...keep in mind how I tried to split up "writing" into specific categories before: there's also the plot, pacing, dialogue, etc.  As far as dialogue, in most cases I'd agree, but that stupid kid in IM3 would probably qualify as having a few "yippies" in there, as if that's really world-ending.  

I didn't.  I've only grouped them b/c of how the initial comment I quoted was phrased.  Yes, I find IM2 is the clear weak link of that trilogy too.  Regardless of that, both do a shitty job in important respects when it comes to writing.  

Bullshit that's the only reason IM3 gets slammed by the fans.  Continuity-wise, it changed him from Iron Man to "Tin Man" for the sake of bringing up "prototypes," had a Pepper Brooks in yoga pants beating up a fire-belching idiot, and a bunch of other idiotic ideas for the sake of moving the plot forward.  Sure, I still really like RDJ's acting as Stark but that can only carry a film so far.



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coolbeans said:
Robert_Downey_Jr. said:

yes writing.  There's no sand monologue or yippies in Iron Man 2 and 3.  Also quit trying to put Iron Man 2 and 3 on the same level as each other.  2 is clearly inferior.  The only people who act like 3 is a bad film at all are the ones who are pissed at the Mandarin twist because Marvel outsmarted them and hid it from the marketing team because god forbid anyone actually conceal their twist instead of revealing it a la Terminator Genesis (not spelling it their way)

Ok...keep in mind how I tried to split up "writing" into specific categories before: there's also the plot, pacing, dialogue, etc.  As far as dialogue, in most cases I'd agree, but that stupid kid in IM3 would probably qualify as having a few "yippies" in there, as if that's really world-ending.  

I didn't.  I've only grouped them b/c of how the initial comment I quoted was phrased.  Yes, I find IM2 is the clear weak link of that trilogy too.  Regardless of that, both do a shitty job in important respects when it comes to writing.  

Bullshit that's the only reason IM3 gets slammed by the fans.  Continuity-wise, it changed him from Iron Man to "Tin Man" for the sake of bringing up "prototypes," had a Pepper Brooks in yoga pants beating up a fire-belching idiot, and a bunch of other idiotic ideas for the sake of moving the plot forward.  Sure, I still really like RDJ's acting as Stark but that can only carry a film so far.

Operation House Party is still one of the most magical film moments I've ever seen in theaters.  You heard the guessing throughout the packed IMAX theater I was in.  I heard "heartbreaker?"  "Hulkbuster" then just holy crap it's like FORTY FREAKING SUITS IN ATTACK FORMATION followed by thunderous applause and "take em to church!"



I am Iron Man

superchunk said:
I like ep 1,2,3 as well. Though they have plenty of faults, especially ep1.

- anakin should have been closer to padame age... like 15, whole story makes a lot more sense with this change.
- jar jar should have been toned down a lot. gungans are an interesting race, but jar jar is just too stupid.
- no need to introduce c3p0 as a naked bot. that was just silly.
- midichlorians are absolute trash. there was no need to attempt and scientifically explain the force. just stupid.

That's all i can think of off the top of my head. ep2 and 3 were done much, much better with fewer items i would deem as bad choices or negatively impacting the SW anakin arch.

My favorites are ep 5, 3, 4, 6, 2, 1.

What do you mean C3PO is naked? A robot can't be naked.



Porcupine_I said:
Have you ever watched the 70 minutes Phantom Menace review?

Where is this review?