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Forums - Politics Discussion - 2016 USA Presidential Election

pokoko said:

I've been wondering, with all the things Trump says that are simply untrue, if, rather than being an idiot, he's just a liar who is smart enough to know that there is a segment of the population that will believe him if he's simply unapologetic.  Say that grass is blue often enough and there are those will believe you if you can make them want to believe you.

Maybe he's just better at being a politician than most politicians.

What made me think about this is the way Trump is taking credit for making Ford back down from building up production in Mexico.  He's claiming that, because of his badgering on the campaign trail, they're cancelling multi-million dollar plans that have been in place for years.  Ford is moving production of select truck lines from Mexico to Ohio and Trump said, "I get credit for that. I should get credit for that."

The problem?  Well, Ford announced the Ohio expansion in 2014 and they claim their plans in Mexico have not changed.  Trump is repeatedly tweeting and talking about in public something which appears to have no basis in reality.  Does it even matter, though?  A lot of people are going to hear him say it and accept his account as truth.  

Is Donald Trump, in effect, attempting to bluff his way into becoming President of the United States?  Or does he just lack the sense to check the facts before he opens his mouth?

Politicians are liers. He's simply a good one who knows how to fool the masses.



 

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12/22/2016- Made a bet with Ganoncrotch that the first 6 months of 2017 will be worse than 2016. A poll will be made to determine the winner. Loser has to take a picture of them imitating their profile picture.

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I'm voting for Sanders in the primary and if he loses to Clinton then Ill vote for her in the general election. Absolutely no one int he Republican party is even worth half a moments consideration. They are all terrible choices with completely unrealistic policies. The Sanders economic vision is the brightest one we have for this country.



ViciousVi said:
I'm voting for Sanders in the primary and if he loses to Clinton then Ill vote for her in the general election. Absolutely no one int he Republican party is even worth half a moments consideration. They are all terrible choices with completely unrealistic policies. The Sanders economic vision is the brightest one we have for this country.

It is kind of ironic that you say this, because a Sanders presidency would be a matter of stalemate between he and his opposition (he even admitted as much in an interview regarding the difference between him and Obama.) This makes  his policies the "unrealistic" ones. Furthermore the levels of spending and tax increases (for all classes) are not in sync with a large number of Americans. This is not to say that certain Republicans, like Trump - for example, are better with their budget plans and views on economics, especially with their ridiculous amounts of defense spending, but they are more coherent and in line with what the economy is like now, and where American politics stands on average. Not that "realism" is a feature that should be solely or even greatly valued in a candidate (I personally think principle trumps "realistic policies"), but with the "unrealistic policies" comment you seemed to place value on it. 



Shadow1980 said:

I like Sanders. I am in agreement with him on more issues than any other candidate. I'm voting for him in the primary. However, I doubt he will win the nomination. It's probably going to be Hillary getting the nomination. I'm not a huge Hillary fan. She's a bit too hawkish and a bit too cozy with Wall Street for my tastes. I don't think she's bad for America, but she isn't exactly good, either. But a bog-standard, rational, sane centrist is far preferable than any Republican candidate. The GOP has gone completely off the deep end since the turn of the century. Increasingly xenophobic, increasingly militaristic (and that's saying something!), increasingly anti-science and anti-environment, increasingly socially authoritarian, increasingly friendly with right-wing militia & anti-government groups (sorry, but people like Cliven Bundy aren't heroes or patriots), and still hell-bent on adhering to failed supply-side economic schemes. I never vote for someone who says "Government is the problem," because they're usually the ones who go out of their way to make government the problem, I never vote for someone who claims to be in favor of "small government" and against "big government tyranny" in one breath and then turns around and demands that the government impose their religious beliefs on society and impose onerous restrictions on people's ability to vote, I never vote for someone who says that we can't afford to hike taxes to pay for universal heathcare and infrastructure improvements but then supports wars of choice that cost hundreds of billions of ultimately borrowed money, and I never vote for someone who claims that "evolutionists" and "warmists" are conspiring to destroy Christianity and/or capitalism. The Trumps, Carsons, Cruzes and Walkers of America should be kept well away from the White House.

A few things: 

1. I agree 100% that most of the small government rhetoric in the GOP is bullcrap, but there are plenty of people who believe in a small government who also believe in a non-interventionist policy and civil liberties (see: Ron Paul/Rand Paul and their supporters.) 

2. The GOP has become less socially authoritarian over time. Many republicans support the end of the War on Drugs and are indifferent to gay marriage. Sure the GOP hasn't become less not as quickly as the Democratic party, but it is false to say that the social conservativism is becoming more popular, it is becoming less so. 

3. The same can be said for the environment. While most republicans in the 2000's would've outright denied climate change, there is a sizable portion who recognize it today, and the influence humans have, but view the costs to do anything about it to be excessive and debalitating, and are not yet convinced that the long-term costs will exceed them. 

4. It is important to realize that the GOP is a much more diverse party than the Democratic one, currently. There are plenty of social moderates in the party, and it has increasingly become less interventionist since the Bush era. 

5 No candidate is without hypocricy. Bernie Sanders is adamately against the NSA's overeaches for example, but continutes to vote to fund them. He is against the federal reserve bank, but continues to dillute/contest efforts that would actually audit it. Those are two things on the top of my head with regard to Bernie Sanders. 

Hillary calls herself a progressive, yet she is still unsure about drug decriminalization. Hillary is for liberties, except when it comes to ownership of guns or property rights in general. 

If you are looking for consistency in ideology, you won't find it in either party. 



sc94597 said:
ViciousVi said:
I'm voting for Sanders in the primary and if he loses to Clinton then Ill vote for her in the general election. Absolutely no one int he Republican party is even worth half a moments consideration. They are all terrible choices with completely unrealistic policies. The Sanders economic vision is the brightest one we have for this country.

It is kind of ironic that you say this, because a Sanders presidency would be a matter of stalemate between he and his opposition (he even admitted as much in an interview regarding the difference between him and Obama.) This makes  his policies the "unrealistic" ones. Furthermore the levels of spending and tax increases (for all classes) are not in sync with a large number of Americans. This is not to say that certain Republicans, like Trump - for example, are better with their budget plans and views on economics, especially with their ridiculous amounts of defense spending, but they are more coherent and in line with what the economy is like now, and where American politics stands on average. Not that "realism" is a feature that should be solely or even greatly valued in a candidate (I personally think principle trumps "realistic policies"), but with the "unrealistic policies" comment you seemed to place value on it. 

I don't agree that his policies are unrealistic at all. What's so unrealistic about his plans? 

Also, he hasn't mentioned his tax plan besides the high level, "We'll increase tax in the top 1% and corporations", so saying that he'd increase tax for all classes is a false statement. 



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sc94597 said:
ViciousVi said:
I'm voting for Sanders in the primary and if he loses to Clinton then Ill vote for her in the general election. Absolutely no one int he Republican party is even worth half a moments consideration. They are all terrible choices with completely unrealistic policies. The Sanders economic vision is the brightest one we have for this country.

It is kind of ironic that you say this, because a Sanders presidency would be a matter of stalemate between he and his opposition (he even admitted as much in an interview regarding the difference between him and Obama.) This makes  his policies the "unrealistic" ones. Furthermore the levels of spending and tax increases (for all classes) are not in sync with a large number of Americans. This is not to say that certain Republicans, like Trump - for example, are better with their budget plans and views on economics, especially with their ridiculous amounts of defense spending, but they are more coherent and in line with what the economy is like now, and where American politics stands on average. Not that "realism" is a feature that should be solely or even greatly valued in a candidate (I personally think principle trumps "realistic policies"), but with the "unrealistic policies" comment you seemed to place value on it. 

He's polling better than Clinton is against his Republican rivals. When I talk about realism in regards to policies I'm not talking about liklihood they will pass congress I am talking about the likelihood they will do good for our economy. We can't finance the government on Carson's 10% tax the math doesn't work. The math doesn't work on any of the republican budget proposals really and hasn't  for any they've proposed in a long time.  



sc94597 said:

 He is against the federal reserve bank, but continues to dillute/contest efforts that would actually audit it. Those are two things on the top of my head with regard to Bernie Sanders. 

 


I don't think Sanders has ever come out against the Fed in concept like Ron/Rand Paul. He has argued for auditing them and introduced the bill to audit the fed in the Senate but accepted an amendment which would allow audits during financial crisis only and not of the Feds Monetary policy actions. Which was the right thing to do if you believe in a central bank because the attempt to audit Fed monetary policy is really just an attempt to politicize the institution to death. Both the Pauls openly call for an end to the Federal Reserve system as a whole, Sanders has only called for reform. He supported a more moderate reform effort in the end (which was probably because of how blatantly the Pauls want to use the audit process to "End the Fed").  Sanders has made it clear he disagrees with certain Fed policies (namely how the bailout and QE were handled), but not with the institution itself. There is nothing hypocritical about this. 



Not gonna vote. The last time that i voted is when Bush won with the multiple recounts in Florida. I lost all faith in the system after that. It doesn't really matter whom is president anyways, imo. There are too damn many congressmen that have been in office way too long, that won't let our country change for the better.



I'm not American but Bernie is obviously the best choice.



pokoko said:

I've been wondering, with all the things Trump says that are simply untrue, if, rather than being an idiot, he's just a liar who is smart enough to know that there is a segment of the population that will believe him if he's simply unapologetic.  Say that grass is blue often enough and there are those will believe you if you can make them want to believe you.

Maybe he's just better at being a politician than most politicians.

What made me think about this is the way Trump is taking credit for making Ford back down from building up production in Mexico.  He's claiming that, because of his badgering on the campaign trail, they're cancelling multi-million dollar plans that have been in place for years.  Ford is moving production of select truck lines from Mexico to Ohio and Trump said, "I get credit for that. I should get credit for that."

The problem?  Well, Ford announced the Ohio expansion in 2014 and they claim their plans in Mexico have not changed.  Trump is repeatedly tweeting and talking about in public something which appears to have no basis in reality.  Does it even matter, though?  A lot of people are going to hear him say it and accept his account as truth.  

Is Donald Trump, in effect, attempting to bluff his way into becoming President of the United States?  Or does he just lack the sense to check the facts before he opens his mouth?


http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/donald-trump-sheldon-adelson-paul-singer-koch-brothers-215540

Trump certainly knows advertising well, isn't it?

 

For matter of Sanders, it seems that everyone has their own data. Inevitable, since it is impossible to get 'Every' data in the world. His budget isn't unrealistic if we cut back on military and build less tanks and aircraft carriers. I don't think we even need to raise the taxes on rich if we cut on military enough. (Seriously though, why is US spending so much money on weapons of all levels?)

My limited knowledge and data indicates plan that Sanders support will ultimately yield best result, I disagree with him on some issue, but his stance match better to mine than others.

History will tell us which data was correct.