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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is it time America writes a new Constitution?

Shadow1980 said:
sc94597 said:
Shadow1980 said:
 Liberals and conservatives would never be able to come together to forge a new Supreme Law of the land. 

While I agree with the sentiment and specifics of your post, I think that liberals and American conservatives are not much more different than the Federalists and Anti-Federalists. Most things would be compromised on (as they are today, despite what people think.) Unfortunately the compromises would be on a lot of the bad things. 

I'd like to believe that, but the difference between now and 1787 was that back then our leaders actually had a far more pressing reason to pass a new constitution. The previous one, the Articles of Confederation, was woefully inadequate as a governing document. The United States was barely able to govern itself and was at risk of falling apart at the seams. Despite all the recent bouts of secessionist bluster, the U.S. is a much more cohesive unit, and that's thanks to our current Constitution. The Articles of Confederation was such a lousy constitution that it lasted only six years before it was decided that a replacement was needed. Despite its own flaws, the current Constitution has been in force for 226 years, so it's been doing its job fairly well.

As there is no pressing need in the form of a country that was barely a cohesive unit to pass a new constitution, a new Constitutional Convention would likely fail due to gridlock. Both parties would be intractable on a great many issues, and without any sort of impetus to pressure them to compromise on things they'd never come to an agreement. Hell, they'd probably never come to an agreement on a mere amendment to the current constitution if it touched on any major issue. For example, Bernie Sanders wants an amendment that would overturn the abominable Citizens United decision, and while the vast majority of Americans want significant changes to how political campaigns are financed, too many in both the federal and state Congresses are comfortable with the current status quo, and thus such a campaign finance. I would also think that many Democrats would like an amendment that modifies the Second Amendment in some fashion, though support for more stringent forms of gun law appears to have diminshed over the decades. Some liberals might also want an amendment banning the death penalty, even though most Americans still support it (and even among liberals opinions are split on the issue; even some of the most liberal Americans would likely, at least in principle, support the death penalty for extremely heinous acts like terrorism). Meanwhile, most conservative Republicans would like amendments to ban same-sex marriage (most Americans approve of such marriages now), abortion (only one-fifth of the people support banning it entirely), and burning the American flag (a 50-50 split among Americans, I think). None of these proposals from either side would ever get ratified. Not only would they probably not come up for an actual vote in Congress, but they wouldn't even get the supermajority in both houses needed to send them to the states for ratification, and not enough states would ratify them in the first place. Hell, we couldn't even pass an amendment that would give DC citizens full voting rights and representation in Congress, which you think would have been a good and decent thing, but as usual the people of DC got the shaft. And that was 30 years ago when "bipartanship" still had yet to become a dirty word in American politics. There are still amendments that were sent to the states that are capable of being ratified today (the Congressional Apportionment Amendment and Child Labor Amendment) that may or may not be worth getting the states that haven't ratified them to reconsider them, but have spent many decades collecting dust, as it were.

All of the hot-button issues of today—and let's be honest, what isn't a hot-button issue these days?—would inevitably come up in a modern-day Constitutional Convention, and I'd imagine there would be quite a few in the Convention that would not capitulate on anything, perhaps enough to keep the entire crafting process in a perpetual state of limbo. There isn't even any universal agreement in Congress on whether the government should do the most basic things, like pay its bills or even fund itself. It would take an act of God for an amendment designed to actually fix something broken with our government (assuming said problem cannot be fixed by appropriate legislature). Getting a new Constitution passed? Forget about it.

But I honestly think that's for the best. The Articles of Confederation quite frankly sucked as a constitution and deserved to be replaced. Meanwhile, though our current constitution has its faults, it works for the most part. Oddly enough, the vague language is perhaps what let us do things on the national level that have improved our country, and it provides enough wiggle room to where legislation alone is enough to solve most problems (giving themselves and their successors that wiggle room is also perhaps another reason why the Philadelphia Convention put so much vague language in the Consitution in the first place, and why neither the Framers nor the Constitution itself ever gave any specific rules on how to interpret it). Sure, that leads to continuous and often fierce and acrimonious discussion over what is and is not constitutional (and the standards of what is or isn't constitutional itself shifts over time), but perhaps that debate is better than being shackled with something highly specific and utterly immutable. Even Thomas Jefferson opined in a letter to Samuel Kerchval:

"Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the arc of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. I knew that age well; I belonged to it, and labored with it. It deserved well of its country. It was very like the present, but without the experience of the present; and forty years of experience in government is worth a century of book-reading; and this they would say themselves, were they to rise from the dead. I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

The most broken or erroneous parts of the Constitution as originally written were modified or deleted by subsequent amendments a long time ago. Today, amendments are really only necessary anymore to overturn Supreme Court decisions, but even those can themselves be overturned by future Supreme Court decisions. Our national government may be dysfunctional (what else is new?), but there's nothing so utterly broken so as to require completely rewriting the Constitution from the ground up.

Bravo.



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reggin_bolas said:
Yes, add an amendment which states that marriage is between a man and a woman.


for what reason?



Shadow1980 said:
sc94597 said:
Shadow1980 said:
 Liberals and conservatives would never be able to come together to forge a new Supreme Law of the land. 

While I agree with the sentiment and specifics of your post, I think that liberals and American conservatives are not much more different than the Federalists and Anti-Federalists. Most things would be compromised on (as they are today, despite what people think.) Unfortunately the compromises would be on a lot of the bad things. 

But I honestly think that's for the best. The Articles of Confederation quite frankly sucked as a constitution and deserved to be replaced. 

See that is something the anti-federalists would have fervently disagreed with you on. The U.S constitution was a loss for them, and the AoC were never meant to institute a federal government, but rather a confederation (see: European Union.)  I personally think the largest issue that they were faced with back then - debt to France et al. , could've been solved without a federal government. France could've just billed the sum of American governments, and the AoC's national organization could've been an intermediary for this. Most anti-federalists also agreed and had alternative plans to resolve this issue. We don't know exactly how it would've ended with an AoC, but I would think the geographical region of the U.S would have many more Native Americans, and much more freedom all around without the U.S federal government, among other things. 

Nevertheless, the moderates and federalists won in the short-term during the debt crisis, not because the anti-federalists compromised, but because they were outnumbered and absent. When the anti-federalists came back into power, and the federalists died out a decade or so later, they were too worried about fixing the rampant mercantilism  that the federalists espoused, and had no resources to do the impossible task of demolishing the federal government that they did not support. Heck, even big Anti-Federalists like TJ embraced the Federal Government (to our detriment.) 

As for today, I can see a constitution working in the event that there is a large crisis, and a stronger party (rather than a 50/50 split.) This would be something New Deal -esque, but more grand as there would be precedent that the New Deal did not have.  Unfortunately the end result would likely be something bad. Things like, "gay marriage/abortion/etc" being illegal would not really come up. Special interests in general would not come up, because they are way too specific. There was a reason why the U.S constitution (and most state constitutions - which have been replaced - for my state - Pennsylvania - it has happened four times) are very general and vague. 



generic-user-1 said:
reggin_bolas said:
Yes, add an amendment which states that marriage is between a man and a woman.


for what reason?


A politically neutral state has no interest in granting same-sex couples marriage licenses. Marriage is only for the protection of the natural family to insure the safety and well being of future generations. 



reggin_bolas said:
generic-user-1 said:


for what reason?


A politically neutral state has no interest in granting same-sex couples marriage licenses. Marriage is only for the protection of the natural family to insure the safety and well being of future generations. 

and why should it be allowed to infertil people than?



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generic-user-1 said:
reggin_bolas said:
generic-user-1 said:


for what reason?


A politically neutral state has no interest in granting same-sex couples marriage licenses. Marriage is only for the protection of the natural family to insure the safety and well being of future generations. 

and why should it be allowed to infertil people than?

Same tired argument. It's not about who can actually reproduce. It has to do about who can actually CONCEPTUALLY reproduce. A biological man and woman can at least conceptually reproduce. A man and a man can never. 

 

 



reggin_bolas said:

Same tired argument. It's not about who can actually reproduce. It has to do about who can actually CONCEPTUALLY reproduce. A biological man and woman can at least conceptually reproduce. A man and a man can never.

Why does it matter that they could conceptually reproduce when in actuality an infertile couple cannot (at least disregarding avenues that gay couples could also take)?  If it is only about what is conceptual, why not just make your ammendment say marriage is between two humans?  I mean, two humans can conceptually reproduce.  It's not about who can actually reproduce, right?  So it shouldn't matter that the couple in question might be two women.  Just like it apparently doesn't matter that a couple might be infertile.

Then of course, there is the reality that plenty of kids are being raised by gay couples.  So the state should have the same motivation for the protection of their families and the future generation.



reggin_bolas said:
generic-user-1 said:
reggin_bolas said:
generic-user-1 said:


for what reason?


A politically neutral state has no interest in granting same-sex couples marriage licenses. Marriage is only for the protection of the natural family to insure the safety and well being of future generations. 

and why should it be allowed to infertil people than?

Same tired argument. It's not about who can actually reproduce. It has to do about who can actually CONCEPTUALLY reproduce. A biological man and woman can at least conceptually reproduce. A man and a man can never. 

 

 

they cant CONCEPTUALLY reproduce if one is infertile.    your argument is only right for couples that CHOSE to have no children, but not if a couple is infertile...



generic-user-1 said:
reggin_bolas said:
generic-user-1 said:
reggin_bolas said:
generic-user-1 said:


for what reason?


A politically neutral state has no interest in granting same-sex couples marriage licenses. Marriage is only for the protection of the natural family to insure the safety and well being of future generations. 

and why should it be allowed to infertil people than?

Same tired argument. It's not about who can actually reproduce. It has to do about who can actually CONCEPTUALLY reproduce. A biological man and woman can at least conceptually reproduce. A man and a man can never. 

 

 

they cant CONCEPTUALLY reproduce if one is infertile.    your argument is only right for couples that CHOSE to have no children, but not if a couple is infertile...

A man and woman can always conceptually reproduce ipso facto. Whether an individual couple is fertile or not is irrelevant to the analysis as a whole. 



reggin_bolas said:
generic-user-1 said:

 

 

they cant CONCEPTUALLY reproduce if one is infertile.    your argument is only right for couples that CHOSE to have no children, but not if a couple is infertile...

A man and woman can always conceptually reproduce ipso facto. Whether an individual couple is fertile or not is irrelevant to the analysis as a whole. 

That's just a baseless place to make the cutoff though.  In modern times two woman can just as easily reproduce as a straight couple where the male is infertile of the two so I see no reason to allow one of those couples to marry but the other not.  Same with two men can reproduce the same ways that a straight couple where the female is infertile.  



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