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Forums - Sports Discussion - The NFL Thread 2015: Denver Broncos win Super Bowl 50

 

Who will win Super Bowl 50?

Patriots 116 25.00%
 
Seahawks 41 8.84%
 
Colts 7 1.51%
 
Packers 42 9.05%
 
Broncos 85 18.32%
 
Ravens 8 1.72%
 
Cowboys 18 3.88%
 
Panthers 56 12.07%
 
Other 74 15.95%
 
Scoreboard 17 3.66%
 
Total:464
RolStoppable said:
MTZehvor said:

Personally, I'd argue against postseason expansion. Twelve teams is plenty. If anything, what they should do is put in some requirement stating that you must have a winning record to make the postseason. That I'd be fine with. Someone like Houston or Kansas City last year did not deserve to be in the postseason. I don't think we should take the byes away from the 2 seeds just to allow a few more mediocre teams into the playoffs.

I have no problem with getting rid of the preseason game, though. And, really, the NFL doesn't need anything to make up the lost revenue. A $7.2 billion dollar per year league can afford to lose a single preseason game.

The argument against mediocrity being allowed into the playoffs doesn't hold water when under current rules the winner of a division goes into the playoffs with home field advantage regardless of their record. Likewise, the requirement being a positive record would lead to years where playoff spots get cut, even under the current rules of only six teams per conference. It would be really odd to have only five teams of a conference in the playoffs every now and then.

What happens more often than not is that teams with a winning record get left out of the playoffs, so an additional spot per conference is a good idea. It's not just that though, because seven playoff spots per conference would keep teams longer in the hunt and result in more meaningful games down the stretch of the season. Because the biggest failure of America's franchise system for sports is that teams that have no chance to reach the playoffs anymore have no real reason to win games anymore. Quite the opposite actually, because the rules for the draft make losing attractive.

I agree that the rules in place are bad because they allow division winners in regardless; but that simply means the solution is to get rid of that rule as opposed to just opening it up to teams that are, more often than not, barely over .500 squads that shouldn't be in the postseason.

We've seen the flipside of having half your conference make the playoffs with the NBA. So many teams that should never be in the postseason. There's much easier ways to fix some undeserving teams being let in the postseason than by letting even more undeserving teams be in the postseason.



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MTZehvor said:
RolStoppable said:

The argument against mediocrity being allowed into the playoffs doesn't hold water when under current rules the winner of a division goes into the playoffs with home field advantage regardless of their record. Likewise, the requirement being a positive record would lead to years where playoff spots get cut, even under the current rules of only six teams per conference. It would be really odd to have only five teams of a conference in the playoffs every now and then.

What happens more often than not is that teams with a winning record get left out of the playoffs, so an additional spot per conference is a good idea. It's not just that though, because seven playoff spots per conference would keep teams longer in the hunt and result in more meaningful games down the stretch of the season. Because the biggest failure of America's franchise system for sports is that teams that have no chance to reach the playoffs anymore have no real reason to win games anymore. Quite the opposite actually, because the rules for the draft make losing attractive.

I agree that the rules in place are bad because they allow division winners in regardless; but that simply means the solution is to get rid of that rule as opposed to just opening it up to teams that are, more often than not, barely over .500 squads that shouldn't be in the postseason.

We've seen the flipside of having half your conference make the playoffs with the NBA. So many teams that should never be in the postseason. There's much easier ways to fix some undeserving teams being let in the postseason than by letting even more undeserving teams be in the postseason.

I agree. Part of what makes the playoffs so enjoyable is that, with possibly one exception a year, every team in it has tended to be worthy of being there. And while there is often a team with a too-late surge who falls short, I not only think expansion would inevitably drag in at least one more bad team each year, but I kind of enjoy the last game of the season due to the drama of whether the 7th team will squeeze in or not. But it's hard to argue that half the teams in the league shoudl actually be in the playoffs.



RolStoppable said:

Oh please, what constitutes an undeserving team is wishy-washy anyway. Remember how the 7-9 Seahawks beat the Saints in the playoffs? Who is the less deserving team here, the one with the worse record or the one that got outplayed by a team with a 7-9 record? Also, each year we usually see at least one division winner with a good record who plays lousy and is one and done. Then you have strength of schedule which gives teams a 10-6 record because they beat all the mediocre and bad teams, but lost all of their games to above average teams.

Yes, half the league being in the playoffs would be too much, but 14 teams wouldn't be a bad idea. More playoff games, more opportunities for teams to meet again in the same season. Those are good storylines, when a team had an embarrassing loss early in the season, but then got their act together and gets a rematch in the postseason.

Good teams lay goose eggs and bad teams get lucky. That doesn't mean I want to count on it. I'd rather remember those games because they're outliers than have to watch yet another pair of 12-4 v. 8-8 games. If you want to improve the quality of play and storylines, drop the rule that automatically lets the division winner in as earlier proposed.



RolStoppable said:
noname2200 said:
MTZehvor said:

I agree that the rules in place are bad because they allow division winners in regardless; but that simply means the solution is to get rid of that rule as opposed to just opening it up to teams that are, more often than not, barely over .500 squads that shouldn't be in the postseason.

We've seen the flipside of having half your conference make the playoffs with the NBA. So many teams that should never be in the postseason. There's much easier ways to fix some undeserving teams being let in the postseason than by letting even more undeserving teams be in the postseason.

I agree. Part of what makes the playoffs so enjoyable is that, with possibly one exception a year, every team in it has tended to be worthy of being there. And while there is often a team with a too-late surge who falls short, I not only think expansion would inevitably drag in at least one more bad team each year, but I kind of enjoy the last game of the season due to the drama of whether the 7th team will squeeze in or not. But it's hard to argue that half the teams in the league shoudl actually be in the playoffs.

Oh please, what constitutes an undeserving team is wishy-washy anyway. Remember how the 7-9 Seahawks beat the Saints in the playoffs? Who is the less deserving team here, the one with the worse record or the one that got outplayed by a team with a 7-9 record? Also, each year we usually see at least one division winner with a good record who plays lousy and is one and done. Then you have strength of schedule which gives teams a 10-6 record because they beat all the mediocre and bad teams, but lost all of their games to above average teams.

Yes, half the league being in the playoffs would be too much, but 14 teams wouldn't be a bad idea. More playoff games, more opportunities for teams to meet again in the same season. Those are good storylines, when a team had an embarrassing loss early in the season, but then got their act together and gets a rematch in the postseason.

I mean, if that's your argument, you might as well let every single team in the playoffs. Who knows, maybe the 6-10 team might be able to outplay a 10-6 team for a single game, and we wouldn't want to refuse any team who might be able to beat another on any given Sunday. Also, I fail to see what line is suddenly drawn that makes 14 the optimal number of teams but 16 really sucks.

You want into the playoffs? Win enough games to at least have the 6th best record in your conference (or, at least, that's how it should be). I say this as a Patriots' fan, arguably the team that got screwed over the worst by this back in 2008. Fix the "division winners automatically advance and get a home game regardless of record" rule, and we're fine.



NFL needs to fix it's salary cap. Ideally they wouldn't have to, because I think they already make enough, but the absolutely insane salaries paid in NBA and MLB mean that many potential stars are lost to other sports. And the NFL is by far the hardest sport on the bodies of the players, with a very short playing time as well.

They certainly make enough money at the ownership/corporate level lol.



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I am all for expanding the playoffs.

1. Make the #1 seed worth more, it gets the only bye week.
2. One more wild card opens up lots of interesting possibilities.
3. It's just more good football. Nothing wrong with more good football.

NFL seasons are already so short and go by so fast. It's not like the NBA or NHL where pretty much half the league makes it after 82 game looooong seasons. One early injury or bad call can mean a loss in the NFL and that one loss could be the difference in winning your division and making the playoffs, or not winning it and not getting a wild card.

I don't buy into the idea that division winners should meet certain criteria outside of winning the division to qualify either. Not all divisions are created equal. Look at the gutter trash of division opponents New England has had most of recent history. Or the Colts now. Compare that to what the NFC West was 2-3 years ago. Those teams beat the hell out of each other and while the 49ers and Seahawks were good enough to go outside the division and win enough games to get 11-12 wins a year, what if there was a 7 or 8 win team winning that tough division? They get left out because some 9 or 10 win team who has a last place schedule won more games? Nah.

2013 Cardinals could have made some noise in the playoffs. Not only that but there are a lot of 8/9 win teams late in the year who would still be in it and would make a lot more games a lot more interesting. Look at baseball. Right now the Texas Rangers are playing the Angels who under old rules would be eliminated with nothing to play for. But now there is the additional WC spot per league, so the Angels aren't out, so now it makes this last 4 game series even more exciting. Same with the Twins, and Astros. It affects a lot of games.



LudicrousSpeed said:
I am all for expanding the playoffs.

I'll take these in turn then.

1. Make the #1 seed worth more, it gets the only bye week.

I'd personally rather stick with two teams getting bye weeks, especially since the #1 seed is so often decided by tiebreakers.

2. One more wild card opens up lots of interesting possibilities.

...such as...what? A mediocre team getting pounded into the ground by the two seed? Gee, sign me up.

3. It's just more good football. Nothing wrong with more good football.

I'd argue, most of the time, it won't be good football. It'll be a team like the Bills or the Dolphins from last year getting beat down by a two seed.

NFL seasons are already so short and go by so fast. It's not like the NBA or NHL where pretty much half the league makes it after 82 game looooong seasons. One early injury or bad call can mean a loss in the NFL and that one loss could be the difference in winning your division and making the playoffs, or not winning it and not getting a wild card.

...by the same token, this argument can be used the exact opposite way. The 2 seed might get a player injured or have a bad call in the additional game they're forced to play now and lose to an undeserving team as a result. Injuries happen, bad calls happen. The way to make them an even bigger deal than they were before is to give them another game to happen in.

I don't buy into the idea that division winners should meet certain criteria outside of winning the division to qualify either. Not all divisions are created equal. Look at the gutter trash of division opponents New England has had most of recent history. Or the Colts now. Compare that to what the NFC West was 2-3 years ago. Those teams beat the hell out of each other and while the 49ers and Seahawks were good enough to go outside the division and win enough games to get 11-12 wins a year, what if there was a 7 or 8 win team winning that tough division? They get left out because some 9 or 10 win team who has a last place schedule won more games? Nah.

...this is exactly why I would say division winners should meet criteria outside of winning the division. The NFC South was a total dumpster fire of a division last year. No one from that division was a playoff quality team. The mere fact that all anyone in that division had to do was be the best out of an awful group should say more than enough about things. I suppose there's a chance of a really strong division just beating up on each other to the point where no one can make the playoffs without division winning rules, but honestly, I don't think I've ever seen that happen. We have seen a number of awful teams that shouldn't have made the playoffs make the playoffs. Until the former becomes a reality, I don't think it's worth worrying about.



Aww, the Steelers let Scobee go.



BAL-PIT 2 NYJ-MIA 1 JAC-IND 2 NYG-BUF 2
CAR-TB 1 PHI-WAS 1 OAK-CHI 1 HOU-ATL 2
KC-CIN 2 CLE-SD 2 GB-SF 1 STL-ARI 2
MIN-DEN 2 DAL-NO 1 BYE   DET-SEA 2 by 10


                                                                                                                                        Above & Beyond

   

RolStoppable said:

My argument had several scenarios and you merely picked the one that was the easiest to attack. Regardless, let's focus on the key point, why 14 teams is better than either 12 or 16. The simple answer is 25 years of statistics. It's much more common that the 7th seed has a positive record than the sixth having an even or negative record, so the likelyhood that a seventh playoff spot would lead to many 8-8 teams making the cut isn't big. Additionally, the entire idea to have 14 playoff teams exists because it is so common that the 7th seed has a positive record. However, if you look at the 8th seed of any given year, the average record is close to 8-8 and that's why 16 playoff teams is too many.

I wouldn't say that you being a Patriots fan works as support for your stance, because it can be easily viewed the exact opposite way. Because your team didn't get into the playoffs with an 11-5 record (something that has a less than 1% chance of happening), no 7th seed shall make the cut, ever.

Finally, there's the argument that a 7th playoff spot in each conference would give more teams something to play for towards the end of the season, and that's something you keep ignoring. You are so focused on that one additional playoff game per conference that might suck that you lose sight of those many meaningless games that are played each December. The NFL tried to soften that problem by making week 17 all about divisional games in the last two or three years, but that didn't really help much. Despite bitter rivalries, many teams opt to phone it in. Of course, meaningless games will always exist, but 14 playoff spots would reduce the number of such games more than anything else the NFL has tried.

Firstly, I picked the scenario that is most likely to happen under a system where the teams with the six best records make the playoffs, as I am proposing. If we implemented a seven team scenario, with the top 7 records making the playoffs, last year would have included the 9-7 Houston Texans and the 7-8-1 Carolina Panthers (who admittedly did make it under the equally silly current playoff rules). The year before, the 8-8 New York Jets and the 8-7-1 Green Bay Packers (again, admittedly made under the silly playoff rules) would have made it. You have to go all the way back to 2012 to find a single team better than 9-7 who would have benefitted from this, and even there, it would have resulted in another .500 or worse team (the Pittsburgh Steelers) making the playoffs in the other conference. The VAST majority of the time, the seventh best team is a fairly mediocre squad as opposed to a genuinely good one left out because the conference was so stacked.

I can't say I really agree with the exciting point, either, especially now that the games are divisional, as you mentioned. So instead of two teams phoning it again, we get to watch a couple of really desperate mediocre teams playing against good teams that have either already clincehd their division and are playing their backups or against bad teams that won't care regardless. Either way, it's not particularly exciting.

More than anything else, what I dislike is punishing the number two seed by taking away their bye just for the sake of letting what is usually a pretty mediocre squad in the playoffs. If we have to operate under division winners get into the playoffs regardless of how bad they are rules, then I'm more open to it, but nothing about this strikes me as better than a system where the top 6 records get in.