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Forums - Politics Discussion - Greece votes no (referendum).

 

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All I can say is, good luck... 103 50.74%
 
This is the beginning of the end for the Euro 31 15.27%
 
Maybe greece should merge... 13 6.40%
 
FUCK YOU GERMANY YOU PIEC... 56 27.59%
 
Total:203
bonzobanana said:


To keep the EU political and currency union going I guess while they were pushing Greece etc to kerb their spending and stop increasing their debt.

I don't see why Germany, France, UK etc should be criticised for this. Greek politicians just kept spending money they never had and now they are basically saying to those who lent them money its their fault. It's all a bit wierd. Greece lived beyond their means basically although I'm not saying the euro didn't have a massive negative effect on Greece. However it was Greece that chose to join the Euro so again their decision. 

I feel sorry for the french and german tax payers who basically will have to pay for Greece defaulting. I'm sure it won't be great for Greece either in the short term but at least they wipe the slate clean.

What is more worrying is how this is handled. It's not in Europe's interest to see Greece do well out of defaulting because then other countries may do the same. It needs to be seen that defaulting was the wrong decision so I wonder how Europe will achieve this. Maybe make exports from Greece difficult, push to make their currency as low value as possible. So that both imports are expensive and exports are more complicated. I can see the standard of living in Greece dropping like a stone.


Yes, to keep political and currency union going which exist only to benefit these big countries and their own interests. If someone keeps lending more and more money even knowing someone won't pay it is straight up their own fault. But in this case, hey let's ask all the "smaller" countries to help Greece so the "big" countries can get at least some of their money back. "Smaller" countries only have only lost in this Greece episode while "big" countries gained. That's what EU is for all of us.

 

Why is it not in Europe's interest to see Greece do well after defaulting? What if defaulting is right choice for other countries too? How come the right decision must be painted as the wrong one? Again, because it does not work towards the interests of these "big" countries. At this point, I think the existence of EU itself is the biggest problem for Europe.



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ganoncrotch said:
padib said:
Ka-pi96 said:
padib said:
How could 61% be enough to make such a severe decision for the country?

Well you either go with the 61%, or you ignore them and go with the 39%. One of those percentages is much larger than the other.

Or, option 3, you don't use a referendum to decide this kind of thing if possible. Are the common folk even in a position to judge on this kind of thing? You need experts for these matters.

Politicians there didn't want to make the hard call so they allowed their people to do it themselves, It was very cowardly imo.

It's even worse then that. They tricked them in doing it. No was almost quaranteed. Afterwards, they will say just it was democracy since they let the people chose for a plan which didn't even exist anymore.

In any case, this is what the Greek voters deserve. We all get what we vote for here in Europe :(.



In the wilderness we go alone with our new knowledge and strength.

The media in EU is probably high-fiving each other right now. Propaganda at its finest. It's all Greece's fault, let them sink.

I had higher hopes :/



Faxanadu said:
I still dont understand the hate of Germany in this. Greek people dont realize it was their own country?

Because that's how media works. If you watch and read the wrong stuff, you get a wrong idea of what went wrong.

Still, they chose the best option imo. They will never be able to pay that much money back... :/



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bonzobanana said:
Player2 said:
 

German banks have bought a ton of portuguese, greek and spanish debt. I wonder if anyone knows why?


To keep the EU political and currency union going I guess while they were pushing Greece etc to kerb their spending and stop increasing their debt.

I don't see why Germany, France, UK etc should be criticised for this. Greek politicians just kept spending money they never had and now they are basically saying to those who lent them money its their fault. It's all a bit wierd. Greece lived beyond their means basically although I'm not saying the euro didn't have a massive negative effect on Greece. However it was Greece that chose to join the Euro so again their decision. 

I feel sorry for the french and german tax payers who basically will have to pay for Greece defaulting. I'm sure it won't be great for Greece either in the short term but at least they wipe the slate clean.

What is more worrying is how this is handled. It's not in Europe's interest to see Greece do well out of defaulting because then other countries may do the same. It needs to be seen that defaulting was the wrong decision so I wonder how Europe will achieve this. Maybe make exports from Greece difficult, push to make their currency as low value as possible. So that both imports are expensive and exports are more complicated. I can see the standard of living in Greece dropping like a stone.

So you don't know. They did to make money. Which is what banks do. Since the economy from those countries isn't as healthy as Germany's (and BCE couldn't buy public debt, now it kinda can, but guess who opposed to it initially? Germany.) they pay way higher interests. Of course it's risky, but since countries cannot let banks fall, why not? They have been making huge profits so far, profits that will outwaight the losses the may suffer if Greece end up not paying all its debt.

PASOK and New Democracy spent what they didn't have because corruption. Was that targeted by the troika? Nope. Just take more money from citizens. And the priorities... oh god. Buy new military aircraft from USA? Ok, that's important. People not being able to pay their electric bill or gas? No big deal. Raise taxes even more.



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bonzobanana said:
routsounmanman said:

Not to mention Ireland, Portugal and Spain had half as much austerity as Greece did.

And speaking of free passes, Germany was the first country to have violated the deficit rules back in 2008 if I recall correctly, free pass. And why exactly is Germany allowed to have such a huge trade surplus? That's against EU rules as well. 

That trade surplus is probably what they used to pay for all these loans [...]

No, they used the historically low interest rates of their bonds, because the entire EU south is through the roof. Germany has saved billions from that alone.

Nevertheless, rules are rules, isn't that what most EU hardcores trumpet? Why is Germany excempt from them?



 

 

Also individual Greeks have taken out loans with many international banks perhaps in excess of the greek national debt and these loans will likely not get paid either and have to be written off. Found some figures. Roughy speaking both household and business debt together is just below government debt and much of this won't be paid back either. Many Greeks have already stopped paying these loans because of the financial situation in the country.




Player2 said:
bonzobanana said:
Player2 said:
 

German banks have bought a ton of portuguese, greek and spanish debt. I wonder if anyone knows why?


To keep the EU political and currency union going I guess while they were pushing Greece etc to kerb their spending and stop increasing their debt.

I don't see why Germany, France, UK etc should be criticised for this. Greek politicians just kept spending money they never had and now they are basically saying to those who lent them money its their fault. It's all a bit wierd. Greece lived beyond their means basically although I'm not saying the euro didn't have a massive negative effect on Greece. However it was Greece that chose to join the Euro so again their decision. 

I feel sorry for the french and german tax payers who basically will have to pay for Greece defaulting. I'm sure it won't be great for Greece either in the short term but at least they wipe the slate clean.

What is more worrying is how this is handled. It's not in Europe's interest to see Greece do well out of defaulting because then other countries may do the same. It needs to be seen that defaulting was the wrong decision so I wonder how Europe will achieve this. Maybe make exports from Greece difficult, push to make their currency as low value as possible. So that both imports are expensive and exports are more complicated. I can see the standard of living in Greece dropping like a stone.

So you don't know. They did to make money. Which is what banks do. Since the economy from those countries isn't as healthy as Germany's (and BCE couldn't buy public debt, now it kinda can, but guess who opposed to it initially? Germany.) they pay way higher interests. Of course it's risky, but since countries cannot let banks fall, why not? They have been making huge profits so far, profits that will outwaight the losses the may suffer if Greece end up not paying all its debt.

PASOK and New Democracy spent what they didn't have because corruption. Was that targeted by the troika? Nope. Just take more money from citizens. And the priorities... oh god. Buy new military aircraft from USA? Ok, that's important. People not being able to pay their electric bill or gas? No big deal. Raise taxes even more.

Your response hardly seems measured and much of it doesn't make much sense. It seems more an emotional response rather than a realistic one.

No one wanted Greece to fail but there just wasn't the political maturity or the will of the people in Greece to accept a lower standard of living. France and Germany have been massively financially damaged by the incompetence of Greece in running  their own affairs. It's getting a bit annoying now reading half-baked theories with zero logic to them. At worst you can criticise France and Germany of helping Greece too much resulting in a even bigger pit for Greece to climb out of. They should have read the signs early and been more aggressive in their demands on Greece.

However I would make the point that the biggest problem was the currency union. Greece needed to make decisions that only a country with its own currency could have made ,it was their decision to join the euro though but it has been like a cancer to the Greek economy.



Some humor in this dreary thread. Old but relevant. Not happy about my own country pigging out on massive amount of debt in the past decade. Mostly household debt with mortgage debt in excess of a trillion dollars. Most if not all of it insured by the central government. We made fun of the Americans but than decided to go ahead and commit the same mistakes. 

Like most times though, Canada atleast gets to fly under the radar.



The Fall of The Land of God and Goddess (Olympus ), i bet Hercules cannot do anything with this situations.