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Forums - Politics Discussion - Greece Defaults. What now?

nanarchy said:
routsounmanman said:

Apparently you know better than Krugman. What's a Nobel prize worth, right? 

Barack Obama and Al Gore Have Nobel Prizes, that alone makes me give ZERO credibility to that title but that aside. the article is a fluff piece that completely ignores Greece's past failings to meet loan conditions, ignores previous write downs of debt and ignores the total lack of credibility Greece has as they are saying they will immediately do things that less than a week ago they claimed without question would not EVER be accepted. I don't care what his credentials are, when you write a fluff piece like that it doesn't matter whether you are the greatest economist in the world or a idiot, it is still horse shit.

Also like it or not the debate on this isn't purely economical, it is political, To accept Greece's proposal off hand would be a political poison pill for many of them, basically asking them to throw away their political future on behalf of Greece. If they are to have any chance to sell the agreement back to their own voters it has to be politically palatable, i.e. it can't look like Greece got favourable terms.


To be fair, Gore put a lot of effort into that documentary. Obama did absolutely nothing, though, which cheapens the efforts of everyone else who has won it in the past (including my fourth cousin, Glenn Seaborg).



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Luxemburg sends in the bailiffs



Azuren said:

 


To be fair, Gore put a lot of effort into that documentary. Obama did absolutely nothing, though, which cheapens the efforts of everyone else who has won it in the past (including my fourth cousin, Glenn Seaborg).

perhaps, but I still think he did far more damage than good, he is intrinsically linked to it and much of the bad presentation of that (the infamous hockey stick graph) and his post documentary profiteering are easy targets for those against climate change, couple that with his own lack of environmental friendliness in how he lives makes him a poster child for hipocrasy.



generic-user-1 said:

every for of energie gets subventions, but renewables are the only that get their subventions in a oen and clear way, not like nuclear, were we just get the bill after some years, or coal were its not only direct subventions, but also free co2 certificates and problematic use of police and other lawenforcing units to deport people from their land because coal is more important than people.

Teeqoz said:

Yes, obviously. We are still very much in a development phase for renewable energy, and we still have long ways to go before we have reached the full potential of many different technologies, ranging from wind to tidal. However, as technology gets improved, and it's taken more widely into use, prices will go down, that's pretty basic economics.

I heard that so many times :D So guys, when that glorious day will come finally? It's not like there's a lot of time left...

...primary energy consumption -- expectedly down (millions of toe):

Green = EU28, brown = Germany, blue = Denmark -- all peaked in 2006, notice the rollercoaster ride of 2008-2010.

At the same time the share of renewables in gross final consumption is up, up, up to 15% (!) currently, while nuclear is down, down, down.



mai said:
generic-user-1 said:

every for of energie gets subventions, but renewables are the only that get their subventions in a oen and clear way, not like nuclear, were we just get the bill after some years, or coal were its not only direct subventions, but also free co2 certificates and problematic use of police and other lawenforcing units to deport people from their land because coal is more important than people.

Teeqoz said:

Yes, obviously. We are still very much in a development phase for renewable energy, and we still have long ways to go before we have reached the full potential of many different technologies, ranging from wind to tidal. However, as technology gets improved, and it's taken more widely into use, prices will go down, that's pretty basic economics.

I heard that so many times :D So guys, when that glorious day will come finally? It's not like there's a lot of time left...

...primary energy consumption -- expectedly down (millions of toe):

Green = EU28, brown = Germany, blue = Denmark -- all peaked in 2006, notice the rollercoaster ride of 2008-2010.

At the same time the share of renewables in gross final consumption is up, up, up to 15% (!) currently, while nuclear is down, down, down.


I fail to see how it's a bad thing that European countries are using less energy.... Improving efficieny of energy consuming actions is only a good thing.....

Cars use less fuel, planes use less fuel, household appliances use less power etc. How does this support your argument?...



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Teeqoz said:


I fail to see how it's a bad thing that European countries are using less energy.... Improving efficieny of energy consuming actions is only a good thing.....

Cars use less fuel, planes use less fuel, household appliances use less power etc. How does this support your argument?...

Improving energy efficiency is all fine and dandy, but declining energy consumption is a sign of dying system. In _healthy_ systems energy freed by improving efficiency goes to other task, therefore gross energy consumption stays the same or growing. But do not worry, you're not alone here, that's worldwide trend more or less. Renewables as the form of new energy source is ultimately a dead end, in fact even what we have now in that field was to a great extent made possible by low oil energy costs assossiated with the full cycle from production to utilization. No cheap oil = no renewabels as a substantial source of energy. That's how human kind rolls, a neverending battle for increasing energy flow per capita. The task of a new source of energy aside from increasing the resource base is to dramatically increase that energy flow therefore ultimately change the quality of civilization. Natually renewables in that context are hardly an answer to our needs, and as much as non-convential oils, are merely delaying the inevitable, the decline. So do they worth investment? No.



mai said:
Teeqoz said:


I fail to see how it's a bad thing that European countries are using less energy.... Improving efficieny of energy consuming actions is only a good thing.....

Cars use less fuel, planes use less fuel, household appliances use less power etc. How does this support your argument?...

Improving energy efficiency is all fine and dandy, but declining energy consumption is a sign of dying system. In _healthy_ systems energy freed by improving efficiency goes to other task, therefore gross energy consumption stays the same or growing. But do not worry, you're not alone here, that's worldwide trend more or less. Renewables as the form of new energy source is ultimately a dead end, in fact even what we have now in that field was to a great extent made possible by low oil energy costs assossiated with the full cycle from production to utilization. No cheap oil = no renewabels as a substantial source of energy. That's how human kind rolls, a neverending battle for increasing energy flow per capita. The task of a new source of energy aside from increasing the resource base is to dramatically increase that energy flow therefore ultimately change the quality of civilization. Natually renewables in that context are hardly an answer to our needs, and as much as non-convential oils, are merely delaying the inevitable, the decline. So do they worth investment? No.


"Are they worth investment? No"

 

I assume you think nuclear (both fission and fusion) is the solution everywhere on the planet, but you gotta consider things like poplutation density, if people live on islands, like in Indonesia. In those cases, transporting energy from nuclear power plants (you obvioulsy wouldn't have one nuclear plant for each island in Indonesia...) will be too expensive and a waste of money.

@bolded

I'm from Norway, we have enough power to cover our consumption, so we don't have a problem here, at all.



Teeqoz said:

"Are they worth investment? No"

 

I assume you think nuclear (both fission and fusion) is the solution everywhere on the planet, but you gotta consider things like poplutation density, if people live on islands, like in Indonesia. In those cases, transporting energy from nuclear power plants (you obvioulsy wouldn't have one nuclear plant for each island in Indonesia...) will be too expensive and a waste of money.

@bolded

I'm from Norway, we have enough power to cover our consumption, so we don't have a problem here, at all.

You've assumed wrong, but in retrpospect if every S-curve of exponential growth, stagnation and inevitable decline has to be replaced by another S-curve of growth I can't see better option than nuclear for the system as a whole, the fact that Iceland will be powered by geothermal energy won't make life of average Joe somewhere else any better.


You = Europe in general, I'm not taking into account some region-specific details.



mai said:
Teeqoz said:

"Are they worth investment? No"

 

I assume you think nuclear (both fission and fusion) is the solution everywhere on the planet, but you gotta consider things like poplutation density, if people live on islands, like in Indonesia. In those cases, transporting energy from nuclear power plants (you obvioulsy wouldn't have one nuclear plant for each island in Indonesia...) will be too expensive and a waste of money.

@bolded

I'm from Norway, we have enough power to cover our consumption, so we don't have a problem here, at all.

You've assumed wrong, but in retrpospect if every S-curve of exponential growth, stagnation and inevitable decline has to be replaced by another S-curve of growth I can't see better option than nuclear for the system as a whole, the fact that Iceland will be powered by geothermal energy won't make live of average Joe somewhere else any better.


You = Europe in general, I'm not taking into account some region-specific details.

It seems that all the traditional spanish energy companies disagree with you, otherwise they wouldn't have lobbied the government to tax the sun. Getting paid for the days their combined cycle plants just sit there doing nothing seems to not be enough for them.



Player2 said:
mai said:

 

You've assumed wrong, but in retrpospect if every S-curve of exponential growth, stagnation and inevitable decline has to be replaced by another S-curve of growth I can't see better option than nuclear for the system as a whole, the fact that Iceland will be powered by geothermal energy won't make live of average Joe somewhere else any better.


You = Europe in general, I'm not taking into account some region-specific details.

It seems that all the traditional spanish energy companies disagree with you, otherwise they wouldn't have lobbied the government to tax the sun. Getting paid for the days their combined cycle plants just sit there doing nothing seems to not be enough for them.

wasn't that due to spain having massive solar deployments due to really badly done subsidies that resulted in power generation costs not being covered by the sales of that power? hence the need to raise revenue from the solar sector that had been massively subsidised.