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Forums - Politics Discussion - Greece Defaults. What now?

mai said:
generic-user-1 said:

the topic changes a bit everytime... 

1. Present situation:europe is energie deficit at the moment because we dont like to drill holes(or more let giant machines eat great chunks of good soil to get coal out of the ground). buying energie from outside is way cheaper and we dont destroy our nature(smart plan).

I thought we were past this fallacy? I'm sorry, I won't bother to comment the rest of the post, nor I do have time for a more serious attempt to critisize smth that is so plainly skewed -- Europe has peaked on ALL major fossil fuels quite some time ago: https://goo.gl/OGJUuW, https://goo.gl/2AvBsf, https://goo.gl/tJRnLg -- translating this into your language: "you've drilled all holes that were possible". Or the word "peaked" is confusing you? Do you need a definition? Well, the meaning is you can't reclaim that back, NO f**king living example somene ever did, only staright line down into olbivion. I'm not saying cover yourself with a shroud and crawl to cemetery, but that's smth worth noting for future planing.

we didnt peaked because its nothing left, we peaked because somebody knocked on the door and offered to sell coal for alot less.

there is no such think as peak oil, we will be all dead because of climate change before we even get close to using all the oil,coal and gas.

the real deal is the price, the 10$ oil is dead, the 25$ oil is dieng, now we have to life with 50-80 dollar oil(drillcost). this cost will climb a little more, till it reaches the point where so many different technologies can turn a  profit that prices will not rise more.



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generic-user-1 said:
mai said:
generic-user-1 said:

the topic changes a bit everytime... 

1. Present situation:europe is energie deficit at the moment because we dont like to drill holes(or more let giant machines eat great chunks of good soil to get coal out of the ground). buying energie from outside is way cheaper and we dont destroy our nature(smart plan).

I thought we were past this fallacy? I'm sorry, I won't bother to comment the rest of the post, nor I do have time for a more serious attempt to critisize smth that is so plainly skewed -- Europe has peaked on ALL major fossil fuels quite some time ago: https://goo.gl/OGJUuW, https://goo.gl/2AvBsf, https://goo.gl/tJRnLg -- translating this into your language: "you've drilled all holes that were possible". Or the word "peaked" is confusing you? Do you need a definition? Well, the meaning is you can't reclaim that back, NO f**king living example somene ever did, only staright line down into olbivion. I'm not saying cover yourself with a shroud and crawl to cemetery, but that's smth worth noting for future planing.

we didnt peaked because its nothing left, we peaked because somebody knocked on the door and offered to sell coal for alot less.

there is no such think as peak oil, we will be all dead because of climate change before we even get close to using all the oil,coal and gas.

the real deal is the price, the 10$ oil is dead, the 25$ oil is dieng, now we have to life with 50-80 dollar oil(drillcost). this cost will climb a little more, till it reaches the point where so many different technologies can turn a  profit that prices will not rise more.

No such thing? Show me your proven and profitable reserves.

Here's to give you a perspective, Greece:

And here's a bunch of debtors waiting in line:

You're witnessing this peak, one by one they are off the balance of the oil world.

Ten little n***er boys went out to dine, one chocked his little self, and there was nine... :D



routsounmanman said:

pretty dishonest piece around a false equivalent, after all the problem right now is that Greece wants more credits while at the same time saying that they won't pay the ones they amassed over the last ~10 years



Lafiel said:
routsounmanman said:

pretty dishonest piece around a false equivalent, after all the problem right now is that Greece wants more credits while at the same time saying that they won't pay the ones they amassed over the last ~10 years

When did we say we won't pay our previous loans? And of course you'd label it "false equivalent"; cherry picking at its finest.



routsounmanman said:
Lafiel said:
routsounmanman said:

 

pretty dishonest piece around a false equivalent, after all the problem right now is that Greece wants more credits while at the same time saying that they won't pay the ones they amassed over the last ~10 years

When did we say we won't pay our previous loans? And of course you'd label it "false equivalent"; cherry picking at its finest.

Tsipras is saying so every fucking day - he wants a debt cut and that's exactly the reason why there was no result in all those negotiations over the last 7-8 months



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Lafiel said:
routsounmanman said:
Lafiel said:
routsounmanman said:

 

pretty dishonest piece around a false equivalent, after all the problem right now is that Greece wants more credits while at the same time saying that they won't pay the ones they amassed over the last ~10 years

When did we say we won't pay our previous loans? And of course you'd label it "false equivalent"; cherry picking at its finest.

Tsipras is saying so every fucking day - he wants a debt cut and that's exactly the reason why there was no result in all those negotiations over the last 7-8 months

Nope, he asks for a debt reform (excuse me if the wording is incorrect), postpone the payments, lower the interest rates.

And even if he asked for a debt reduction, he is right; it is nearly impossible to ever pay back full because we lost 26% of our GDP, because of a failed program (and our politicians idiocy, I admit)! Can you even comprehend the destruction to our economy? Do you even care? Even the IMF backs it up.

If Europe hadn't cut Germany's debt back in 1953, there'd be no "economic miracle", you'd still be in shambles. Wake up and face the truth.



routsounmanman said:
Lafiel said:

Tsipras is saying so every fucking day - he wants a debt cut and that's exactly the reason why there was no result in all those negotiations over the last 7-8 months

Nope, he asks for a debt reform (excuse me if the wording is incorrect), postpone the payments, lower the interest rates.

And even if he asked for a debt reduction, he is right; it is nearly impossible to ever pay back full because we lost 26% of our GDP, because of a failed program (and our politicians idiocy, I admit)! Can you even comprehend the destruction to our economy? Do you even care? Even the IMF backs it up.

If Europe hadn't cut Germany's debt back in 1953, there'd be no "economic miracle", you'd still be in shambles. Wake up and face the truth.

Ofcourse you lost much of your GDP. For many decades Greece has been spending more on goverment financed employment/pensions than they could afford through taxation income (and took out loans for that). Once these jobs were cut/pensions reduced less money was cycling in the local economy leading to businesses becoming unprofitable and closing.

But that system was entirely unsustainable in the eurozone from the beginning, especially in a country with a foreign trade balance deficit (money will just leave the local economy bit by bit +  interest rates from loans -> more new/higher loans needed and even more interest that needs to be payed -> cycle is speeding up, debt going out of control), and it has to be dramatically restructured so that the private sector (which actually produced goods/ does international services) is the by far far largest employer so that people/companies can provide enough taxes for the government to stop taking out new loans.

Afaik Tsipras promised to go back to big (unsustainable) government employment in the 2014 elections - I wonder what will happen when (unconditional) loans are provided.

Personally I think reintroducing their own currency will help Greece much more, although the first 2-3 years after such a move could result in a dramatic collapse of the economy, but with their own currency Greece can devalue it as much as needed for the local goods/services to be competitive and become the basis for new growth and wealth - hopefully resulting in a quick recovery like other countries in a similar situation showed in the past decades. In that case creditors obviously will lose large amounts of their money, but I don't care about that, have it as donations, but pumping new money (without any restructuring conditions attached) into that failed system seems like a waste to me.

 

I am very grateful the international community granted Germany another chance after being responsible for 2 devastating and unforgivable world wars and I'm a big big benificiary of that decision, but I have no doubt our representatives of the time also showed that they know what went so very wrong and how to rebuild the country and make it a valuable partner of the international community.



You know that Xristoforakos ,who is the "middle-man" for all the Siemens black money that corrupted greek politicians , is in Germany and germans politicians refuse to send him back in Greece so we learn who were those politicians that took all that black money?

P.S. We are talking about billions of euro.



Lafiel said:
routsounmanman said:
Lafiel said:

Tsipras is saying so every fucking day - he wants a debt cut and that's exactly the reason why there was no result in all those negotiations over the last 7-8 months

Nope, he asks for a debt reform (excuse me if the wording is incorrect), postpone the payments, lower the interest rates.

And even if he asked for a debt reduction, he is right; it is nearly impossible to ever pay back full because we lost 26% of our GDP, because of a failed program (and our politicians idiocy, I admit)! Can you even comprehend the destruction to our economy? Do you even care? Even the IMF backs it up.

If Europe hadn't cut Germany's debt back in 1953, there'd be no "economic miracle", you'd still be in shambles. Wake up and face the truth.

I am very grateful the international community granted Germany another chance after being responsible for 2 devastating and unforgivable world wars and I'm a big big benificiary of that decision, but I have no doubt our representatives of the time also showed that they know what went so very wrong and how to rebuild the country and make it a valuable partner of the international community.

Apparently, Greece is is not worth a second chance. Start a terrible war (I don't hold Germany solely responsible for WW1), devastate the entire continent, ok here you go, all forgiven. Forge fake fiscal data? ANNIHILATION.

Also, it is true that we overborrowed money during the period 2000-2009 but it's a misconception that Greece solely lived through that. Even before adopting the common currency, we were quite a healthy and strong nation (nothing compared to countries like Bulgaria, Latvia, etc that Germans insist we must come down to to become competitive).

And losing 26% of GDP is a CATASTROPHE no matter how you try to sugar coat it. And asking for painful and deep reforms (mostly taxes and cuts) during this period only makes things worse. Believe me, if this deal goes through, we're going to lose another 25% in 5 years. No country can sustain that; a default back in 2009 would have brought us in a much better position long-term, but the EU didn't let us default, to save the private baks, and shelter the other big indebted nations (Spain, Italy).

PS1: Ignore Davman, just don't even try to answer.
PS2: I respect the modern Germany, and have nothing against the German people, if anything, I find they're lovely (tourists visiting here, etc) and very educated and kind. But the whole German government has treated us like garbage that absolutely need to be punished. Angela Merkel is the worst leader the EU could have right now; if we go down, she will be remembered for this failure.



routsounmanman said:
Lafiel said:

 

I am very grateful the international community granted Germany another chance after being responsible for 2 devastating and unforgivable world wars and I'm a big big benificiary of that decision, but I have no doubt our representatives of the time also showed that they know what went so very wrong and how to rebuild the country and make it a valuable partner of the international community.

Apparently, Greece is is not worth a second chance. Start a terrible war (I don't hold Germany solely responsible for WW1), devastate the entire continent, ok here you go, all forgiven. Forge fake fiscal data? ANNIHILATION.

Also, it is true that we overborrowed money during the period 2000-2009 but it's a misconception that Greece solely lived through that. Even before adopting the common currency, we were quite a healthy and strong nation (nothing compared to countries like Bulgaria, Latvia, etc that Germans insist we must come down to to become competitive).

And losing 26% of GDP is a CATASTROPHE no matter how you try to sugar coat it. And asking for painful and deep reforms (mostly taxes and cuts) during this period only makes things worse. Believe me, if this deal goes through, we're going to lose another 25% in 5 years. No country can sustain that; a default back in 2009 would have brought us in a much better position long-term, but the EU didn't let us default, to save the private baks, and shelter the other big indebted nations (Spain, Italy).

PS1: Ignore Davman, just don't even try to answer.
PS2: I respect the modern Germany, and have nothing against the German people, if anything, I find they're lovely (tourists visiting here, etc) and very educated and kind. But the whole German government has treated us like garbage that absolutely need to be punished. Angela Merkel is the worst leader the EU could have right now; if we go down, she will be remembered for this failure.

The way Germany was treated post WWI is what led to WWII with much of the debt artificialy imposed on them as everyone simply said these are our war damages, Germany you must pay them, post WWII they did actually pay back and compensate huge amounts of their debt (though they also had a haircut on it). Greece has had 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances and renigged on each of those chances ever since entering the Euro. Now on top of asking for another chance they also want another haircut on the loans while insulting those providing the loans. It is also amusing that the cartoon says Greece accepted the debt write off as Tsipras has made repeated demands this year that the debt must be repaid, with interest in current euro equivalent.