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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Which transition to 3D was the best? - Mario, Zelda or Metroid?

 

Which one?

Mario 98 28.00%
 
Zelda 152 43.43%
 
Metroid 100 28.57%
 
Total:350
spemanig said:
MTZehvor said:

...not quite sure how Prime "isn't Metroid."

The essence of Metroid is isolated exploration of a non-linear environment while slowly becoming more powerful through personal discovery. Metroid Prime is...isolated exploration of a non-linear environment, and you slowly become more powerful by discovering various powerups and upgrades. I suppose you can argue that Samus controls differently, but it's very much in the same vein as the 2D Metroid games.

On topic, I'd say Prime was the best, followed by OoT, and then SM64. Personally, I think Prime has held up much better over time than either SM64 or OoT, and no one has really been able to actually improve significantly on Prime, while OoT and SM64 have been outdone on several occasions.


There are four core values on which Metroid was created: Action, Exploration, linearity, and platforming. In no particular order, but of equal importance. Not non-linearity, masked linearity. It was meant to take the action and freedom found in Zelda and mix it with the platforming and linear progression found in Mario, creating an experience that is inbetween the two.

The progression through Metroid is extremely linear. There is a "right way" to go. What creates that sense of freedom is the fact that, although there is usually just one path forward, you are never explicitely told what that path is or how to proceed through it. It was never about non-linear progression, but about exploration.

Prime gets the action, exploration, and the linearity down, but almost entirely drops the platforming. Because platforming is such a huge part of the way Metroid is designed, this changed a lot in the switch to 3D. It completely changed the level design to something extremely horisontal (like Mario) when Metroid prided itself on is verticle level design. The shift in perspective had a detremental impact on the types of power ups she recieved, with less of them focusing on platforming and more focusing on a new visual "scanning" gimmick (not using gimmick in a derogerory way). That was never what Metroid was about. Also, the power ups where never merely about "getting more powerful." They were about getting more platforming abilities. Almost every power-up in the 2D games is a platforming power up.

Prime is only Metroid in genre to me. It happens to be a game in the franchise that falls into the "metroidvania" subgenre, but that's the extent of it. It lacks the level design and platforming focus that Metroids 1, 2, and 3 had. If it wasn't part of the franchise, it would be unrecognisable. Can't say the same for something like Super.

For the record, I think Prime is much better than Mario 64 or OoT as well, but I don't think that means that it transitioned to 3D the best.

Bit of a side note, but I think claiming that Metroid is simply "masked" linearity fails to take much of what Metroid is into account. While most Metroid games have a "standard" order that someone will probably complete them in on their first attempt, they usually allow for these tasks to be accomplished out of order. For instance, the original Metroid allows for...things to really be done in just about any order, so long as Tourian is beaten last. The bosses in Super Metroid can and have been beaten in any order without the need for hacks. This is a bit less prevalent in games like Metroid 2 and Fusion, but I think dismissing all non linearity from Metroid's past misses much of what Metroid games have done.

On topic, though, I would argue that you're making platforming out to be a much more significant component of Metroid's essence than it truly is. I can find no interview with a developer or other official source that lists "platforming" as a core value of Metroid.

Secondly, saying that nearly every single powerup in the 2D genre is platforming based is a borderline ludicrous claim. The Screw Attack, Charge Beam, Wave Beam, Plasma Beam, Spazer Beam, Missiles, Super Missiles, Power Bombs, Varia Suit, Gravity Suit, and X-Ray Scope have absolutely nothing to do with platforming. The Ice Beam and Speed Booster have extremely minor effects on platforming in very limited scenarios. Really, the only powerups that are platforming oriented are the Space Jump, Morph Ball Bomb, High Jump, and possibly the Grapple Beam. That's 4-6 out of 12 or so powerups from the original 4 2D games that are designed towards platforming. Vertical movement is not the main focus here.

Finally, though, I think the notion that platforming is almost absent from the Prime games is incorrect as well; much of the platforming focuses on horizontal space instead of vertical. Elysia from Metroid Prime 3, Torvus Bog from Metroid Prime 2, and Phendrana Drifts from Prime focus heavily on platforming segments. Chozo Ruins and Magmoor Caverns from Prime include plenty of platforming as well, as does the entire sunken Frigate Orpheon. The Ing Hive from Echoes and Bryyo Cliffside (I believe that's the name) from Corruption have quite a bit of platforming too. Platforming is most definitely not removed from the Prime series. Even Hunters, the much maligned wicked stepsister of the Prime series, focuses intently on platforming, particularly on Alinos and Arcterra.



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metroid.
although mario and zelda 3D adaptations changed the whole industry.



SM 64 because it was the first game that I saw in 3D.



The best of the 3 from 2D to 3D was Mario. We got SM64, SMS, SMG1+2, and SM3DW, which are all, in my opinion, better than what the other franchises have to offer in 3D.



MTZehvor said:

Bit of a side note, but I think claiming that Metroid is simply "masked" linearity fails to take much of what Metroid is into account. While most Metroid games have a "standard" order that someone will probably complete them in on their first attempt, they usually allow for these tasks to be accomplished out of order. For instance, the original Metroid allows for...things to really be done in just about any order, so long as Tourian is beaten last. The bosses in Super Metroid can and have been beaten in any order without the need for hacks. This is a bit less prevalent in games like Metroid 2 and Fusion, but I think dismissing all non linearity from Metroid's past misses much of what Metroid games have done.

On topic, though, I would argue that you're making platforming out to be a much more significant component of Metroid's essence than it truly is. I can find no interview with a developer or other official source that lists "platforming" as a core value of Metroid.

Secondly, saying that nearly every single powerup in the 2D genre is platforming based is a borderline ludicrous claim. The Screw Attack, Charge Beam, Wave Beam, Plasma Beam, Spazer Beam, Missiles, Super Missiles, Power Bombs, Varia Suit, Gravity Suit, and X-Ray Scope have absolutely nothing to do with platforming. The Ice Beam and Speed Booster have extremely minor effects on platforming in very limited scenarios. Really, the only powerups that are platforming oriented are the Space Jump, Morph Ball Bomb, High Jump, and possibly the Grapple Beam. That's 4-6 out of 12 or so powerups from the original 4 2D games that are designed towards platforming. Vertical movement is not the main focus here.

Finally, though, I think the notion that platforming is almost absent from the Prime games is incorrect as well; much of the platforming focuses on horizontal space instead of vertical. Elysia from Metroid Prime 3, Torvus Bog from Metroid Prime 2, and Phendrana Drifts from Prime focus heavily on platforming segments. Chozo Ruins and Magmoor Caverns from Prime include plenty of platforming as well, as does the entire sunken Frigate Orpheon. The Ing Hive from Echoes and Bryyo Cliffside (I believe that's the name) from Corruption have quite a bit of platforming too. Platforming is most definitely not removed from the Prime series. Even Hunters, the much maligned wicked stepsister of the Prime series, focuses intently on platforming, particularly on Alinos and Arcterra.


I'm definitely not calling Metroid strickly linear, because it's just not, but the way exploration is handled is far more guided than in a game like Zelda 1. That's all I was getting at.

As for an official source, there is an entire article on the inception and creation of the Metroid that goes in to detail about that.

Here: http://www.ign.com/articles/2008/08/15/ign-presents-the-history-of-metroid

It's frankly undeniable that platforming is a major focus of the games. Like I said, nearly all of Samus' power ups are platforming power ups. Samus has more platforming powerups in Super Metroid than Mario has in his first five games. Honestly, I shouldn't have to look for a source that proves that Metroid is a big platformer.

Are you honestly trying to claim that the screw attack, an attack that allows you to break through obstacles as you perform infinite jumps, isn't a platfroming power up? The Gravity Suit, which is literally only there to make platforming possible under water, isn't a platforming power up? The Speed Booster isn't limited in it's uses at all. It required for progression in several parts of Super Metroid. The regular bomb, shine spark, high jump boots, ice beam, grappling beam, morph ball, wall jump, and space jump are all platforming power ups. The beam powerups are by far the least important power ups in the 3D games, aside from the ice beam, only acting as artificial difficulty barriers against the space pirates. Removing them in favor of just one would literally change nothing about the games, and would only require a scaling of the enemies HP. Removing even one platforming power up would literally require revamping entire levels of the games.

So that's 11/16 or so power ups, and again, the beams are all basically one curved power up that don't add substantive change to the gameplay. Vertical movement is 100% the key focus. It's what created the subgenre. Metroidvania is a platforming subgenre. It was initially concieved to describe a subset of platformers, because of how great a plarformer Super Metroid was.

Saying that platforming was gone from Prime was definitely hyperbole, obviously it's full of platforming, but it took a huge back seat, and the quality of the platforming and especially the level design suffered harshly because of it. Samus feels like a tank in Prime. Samus feels like an actrobat in 2D Metroid. That's a huge difference and a big issue. Samus is supposed to play nimble and spritely, and that was impossible in Prime because of the nature of first person platformers.

It's like comparing the platforming in Mario 64 for the platforming in Super Mario World. Yeah, there is platforming in 64, but there was something significantly lost in the transition to 3D there. It was much worse for Metroid. I always say this - Mario 64 is what 3D Metroid should have been. The level design in Mario 64, for the most part, is much more Metroid than it is Mario.

I think people misconstrue that since Prime is an amazing game, it's also perfectly true to Metroid. That's not the case, even a little.



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On the subject of platforming, all I could find from the article was this quote:

"The game would be a shooter that combined the platforming of Super Mario Bros. with Zelda's non-linear exploration, plus a unique element all its own: atmosphere. Yokoi was a big believer in applied technology. He wasn't interested in reinventing wheels... he just made better wheels."

Note the key phrase here: "the platforming of Super Mario Bros," which has always been much more focused on the horizontal than the vertical. I'm certainly not going to claim that you can just leave platforming out of Metroid and have it be the same thing, but strictly vertical platforming is not so integral to the series that its an entirely different beast when you toss it out, especially considering that the series that Metroid's platforming was modeled after didn't even have vertical platforming segments at the time the original Metroid was being created.

The Screw Attack does not grant you the ability to jump infinitely; you're thinking of the Space Jump, which is a powerup I already mentioned towards platforming. The Speed Booster is extremely limited in its uses, as you actually need a room long enough to get a charge before it can be used. The Morph Ball is not a platforming power up as there is absolutely no platforming you can do with it without the use of bombs (something else I included in my list), the wall jump isn't a power up, shine spark isn't an independent power up, and, as mentioned before, I already included the Space Jump. Ice Beam and Grapple Beam I'll grant you, but then again, I already put those on my list too.

Using Super Metroid as an example, you could remove quite a few of those powerups without having to change the levels up drastically for people to beat the game. Heck, people have already beaten the game as it stands without the Speed Booster, High Jump, Gravity Suit, Grapple Beam, and Space Jump.

I'll certainly grant that Samus feels more tank-like in Prime, but I also don't believe that in and of itself undermines the game being a Metroid-esque game. The platforming is there, at least in part. The exploration, atmosphere, isolation, and method of progression are all there. Not having the main character control at the same level of agility doesn't seperate it from being part of the same genre.



I'm a huge Metroid fan, and I think the Prime games are fantastic, but I think Zelda: Ocarina of Time was the best transition. Metroid Prime definitely does not feel like an extension of the origtinal Metroid universe, but rather a FPS (or FPA) using Metroidvania elements. Ocarina captures the feel of the map, the items, the enemies, etc. And yes...all three were perfect transitions into 3D gaming.



Either Metroid or Zelda, Mario 64 has not aged very, due to bad camera, awkward controls, and being kicked out of the level after dying just does not work in 3d. Mario 64 is the only one out of the 3 that would not be critically acclaimed if it were released today.



Honestly I think they all transitioned perfectly



I was never a Metroid guy, so that rules that one out.

Ocarina of Time made me wish I was playing Link to the Past (I love me some 2D Zelda, didn't care ofr the 3D changeover)

Mario 64 is a game that my brother and I would routinely delete saves on just so we could do the whole thing over again.

Mario wins for me.