By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - BREXIT could cost the UK €300 billion

Qwark said:
Ka-pi96 said:
setsunatenshi said:
it's up to you brits to decide whether you wanna stay or leave.

i do think the way things are can't stay for long... so either we as europeans put nationalities aside and collectively opt to form a real federation or we might as well go back to the way things were way back when.

continuing to a federation solution would obviously mean the bigger economies would have to increase the solidarity to the weaker economies, much in the same way as the main bulk of the budget in a given country is generated in it's richer cities and then a part distributed to the least economically independent ones.

that's a pill that is hard to swallow for the electorate of the net contributors, but it's entirely up to them to balance out what they see as the more important goal.

isolation will have costs that probably outweigh the benefits that seem easier to comprehend for the more simpleton voter.

anyway, let's see what come of it. gl uk

Yes please. IMO the sooner we become one giant European super nation the better


Europe is to diverse for thst to be honest, secondly swiss and norway wouldn't join. Neither would any country which doesn't have the Euro. Would you be glad to hand over the profit of the hard earned North Western economies to support the broke corrupted states even further. I don't want to see that happen since that would tore our continent appart even further. The EU must become more of what the EEC was a party for environmental care, economical colobration and control, controling migration and millitary defense nor shouldn't concern itself with every law made in each state it should lose it's big brother's attitude. The EU should set out a few clear lines to which countries need to obey to stay in the Union (rules about corruption, debt etc.).

It's also what UK wants these days 75% of your lws are delgated from EU policy's.


Something like United Nations of Europe would take a long time. But i think it's not impossible. Not in the long term. That would have to mean that nations are willing to give up some things to a real european government though. Something i do not see right now.


Now, what can the EU right now give? Actually stability. That is something you can see in the other problem countries like Ireland, Spain, Italy...

They've had a really tough time and still have, but as for example Spains economy would likely have fallen apart if not in the EU.


Political weight. Let's face it. A single european state, even Germany, France or UK does not at all have the big political weight. EU could have that and basically already has it if decisions are made together instead against each other.

 

By the way, most german banks are stable. Deutsche Bank just wants to get rid of its not so profitable sectors like small private customers and it has to pay a penalty, though a huge one.

Your great british banking and finance sector shows another problem on the other hand. It's to big. one nice finance crash or the wrong bank collapsing and UK's economy, at least as long as it is alone, basically would fall apart.



Around the Network

There not leaving Europe there leaving the European Union and regaining their own sovereignty to make their own laws regarding commerce.

People love to scaremonger about the UK leaving the European Union but the free trade deals it has with the European Union benefit are more beneficial to the other countries as the UK has a trade deficit with the rest of the EU. The EU also forces member nations to adopt policies benefiting certain members over others and makes it harder for the UK to get free trade deals with countries outside the EU or regulate it's own borders.

Fuck the European Union, the sooner it falls apart the better in my opinion.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

captain carot said:
Qwark said:


Europe is to diverse for thst to be honest, secondly swiss and norway wouldn't join. Neither would any country which doesn't have the Euro. Would you be glad to hand over the profit of the hard earned North Western economies to support the broke corrupted states even further. I don't want to see that happen since that would tore our continent appart even further. The EU must become more of what the EEC was a party for environmental care, economical colobration and control, controling migration and millitary defense nor shouldn't concern itself with every law made in each state it should lose it's big brother's attitude. The EU should set out a few clear lines to which countries need to obey to stay in the Union (rules about corruption, debt etc.).

It's also what UK wants these days 75% of your lws are delgated from EU policy's.


Something like United Nations of Europe would take a long time. But i think it's not impossible. Not in the long term. That would have to mean that nations are willing to give up some things to a real european government though. Something i do not see right now.


Now, what can the EU right now give? Actually stability. That is something you can see in the other problem countries like Ireland, Spain, Italy...

They've had a really tough time and still have, but as for example Spains economy would likely have fallen apart if not in the EU.


Political weight. Let's face it. A single european state, even Germany, France or UK does not at all have the big political weight. EU could have that and basically already has it if decisions are made together instead against each other.

 

By the way, most german banks are stable. Deutsche Bank just wants to get rid of its not so profitable sectors like small private customers and it has to pay a penalty, though a huge one.

Your great british banking and finance sector shows another problem on the other hand. It's to big. one nice finance crash or the wrong bank collapsing and UK's economy, at least as long as it is alone, basically would fall apart.


I am Dutch not British, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Italy did not fall apart due to the EU, which is nice but never the less the EU shouldn´t be to much of a new US. Why would Germany, France, Uk, Benelux even want such a thing they are doing quite well and there economies are running good as they always have and always will. That economic status is hard earned and due to the crisis these countries endured quite a lot. On second hand a eurosuperstate could only be a concensus made decission since a 50%+ vote would cause an outrage and possibly countries leaving EU directly. Technically even Greece could prevent such a thing happening.

European countries are not American states we work together (because we need and like to), but in the very essence we are indvidual countries which also compete against eachother. Take the Harbour of Rotterdam and the Harbour of Antwerpen, those harbours compete against eachother but also work together. They both want to be the best and the Governments of the respected countries want to have the most safe and the biggest harbour possible. Make a superstate and SuperEU would decide the fate of these harbours. A superstate would be to masssive and to much of bureaucraty, I for one am glad that the British and Dutch EU ministers stopped the European constitution replacing national constitution. Even though some things like gay marriage might be allowed in whole Europe affective at the date clearance was allowed, the country doesn't choose to do that and could still make it very hard for those people to actually do it. 

Decissions in Europe are made either by consensus or a 50%+ voting panel, so technicaly it's pretty much democratic. My only problem witth the EU is, that is has to much direct delegated laws and to few guidelines with a deadline, (not making it has concequences unless you are France). It gives a sharing policy throughout Europe yet it keeps it's diversity and countries can do there thing in it's own way. This way would be supported by most citizens of a country since they can actually protest against things, try protesting against an EU regulation most people wouldn't even know where to begin. The EU should focus more on it's original goals which are support peace, environment, knowledge and economic growth throughout and sometimes even outside Europe. And less about which countrie should do what on migration, healthcare, education, crime fighting, agriculture and god knows what. Let countries find that out with eachother without some superstate interference. So less EU interference on some areas and more on other areas no need to transform into the United States of Europe.



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

i say: no more special conditions for UK.
if they want to stay, contribute the same as every other country.
if they want to leave, fuck off. but just don't stay and call for special advantages that no one else has.



must-have-list for platforms i don't own yet:

WiiU: Donkey Kong

XBone: Dead Rising 3, Ryse

I think it's funny people argue that other countries will lose more yet this official study from one of the biggest research organisations says otherwise. I'd rather believe this than some negative british tabloid full of lies



Around the Network
Ka-pi96 said:
Gehirnkrampf said:
i say: no more special conditions for UK.
if they want to stay, contribute the same as every other country.

if they want to leave, fuck off. but just don't stay and call for special advantages that no one else has.

Bit of a flaw there since literally every single country contributes different amounts...

yes, but every other countrys contributes as much as they have to, the brits get a dicount because the other EU countrys doesnt want the UK to leave.



We need to stay in EU. There is zero reason to leave. UKIP is bullshit.



kowenicki said:
Propaganda

haha I'm not surprised this is coming from. One of the biggest most trusted research organisation publishing propaganda... You actually believe yourself don't you. Whatever makes your world turn I guess. I'm expecting your 'not propaganda' analysis on the numbers!



Qwark said:
captain carot said:


Something like United Nations of Europe would take a long time. But i think it's not impossible. Not in the long term. That would have to mean that nations are willing to give up some things to a real european government though. Something i do not see right now.


Now, what can the EU right now give? Actually stability. That is something you can see in the other problem countries like Ireland, Spain, Italy...

They've had a really tough time and still have, but as for example Spains economy would likely have fallen apart if not in the EU.


Political weight. Let's face it. A single european state, even Germany, France or UK does not at all have the big political weight. EU could have that and basically already has it if decisions are made together instead against each other.

 

By the way, most german banks are stable. Deutsche Bank just wants to get rid of its not so profitable sectors like small private customers and it has to pay a penalty, though a huge one.

Your great british banking and finance sector shows another problem on the other hand. It's to big. one nice finance crash or the wrong bank collapsing and UK's economy, at least as long as it is alone, basically would fall apart.


I am Dutch not British, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Italy did not fall apart due to the EU, which is nice but never the less the EU shouldn´t be to much of a new US. Why would Germany, France, Uk, Benelux even want such a thing they are doing quite well and there economies are running good as they always have and always will. That economic status is hard earned and due to the crisis these countries endured quite a lot. On second hand a eurosuperstate could only be a concensus made decission since a 50%+ vote would cause an outrage and possibly countries leaving EU directly. Technically even Greece could prevent such a thing happening.

European countries are not American states we work together (because we need and like to), but in the very essence we are indvidual countries which also compete against eachother. Take the Harbour of Rotterdam and the Harbour of Antwerpen, those harbours compete against eachother but also work together. They both want to be the best and the Governments of the respected countries want to have the most safe and the biggest harbour possible. Make a superstate and SuperEU would decide the fate of these harbours. A superstate would be to masssive and to much of bureaucraty, I for one am glad that the British and Dutch EU ministers stopped the European constitution replacing national constitution. Even though some things like gay marriage might be allowed in whole Europe affective at the date clearance was allowed, the country doesn't choose to do that and could still make it very hard for those people to actually do it. 

Decissions in Europe are made either by consensus or a 50%+ voting panel, so technicaly it's pretty much democratic. My only problem witth the EU is, that is has to much direct delegated laws and to few guidelines with a deadline, (not making it has concequences unless you are France). It gives a sharing policy throughout Europe yet it keeps it's diversity and countries can do there thing in it's own way. This way would be supported by most citizens of a country since they can actually protest against things, try protesting against an EU regulation most people wouldn't even know where to begin. The EU should focus more on it's original goals which are support peace, environment, knowledge and economic growth throughout and sometimes even outside Europe. And less about which countrie should do what on migration, healthcare, education, crime fighting, agriculture and god knows what. Let countries find that out with eachother without some superstate interference. So less EU interference on some areas and more on other areas no need to transform into the United States of Europe.


Well, we are individual countries, yes. But why should it stay this way forever. I live really close to the dutch border and Belgium is also pretty near. And i'd say except for language (though i speak a little bit dutch) i have more in common with the Dutch near the border than with most Bavarians. Local dialects, though most are dying out, are actually far closer to Dutch than to bavarian dialects as well.

Now, German history is interesting at that point. Even at the time we had the holy roman empire of german nations, it was basically many smaller and bigger individual states. Which fought against each other, competed...

One real major german state barely exists 150 years. Okay, it's been two states for about 40 of those years. Since 1949 we have a federal republic. Every federal land having it's own government.

 

So why not at one time somewhere in the future have a federated Europe? Because we are afraid to loose our nationality?

 

Now for bureaucracy, regulations and so on. Right now the EU government if one wants to call it that way is nothing as a bureaucratic monster regulating sometimes strange things. Though not everything is bad. You said education and crime fighting. Though i wouldnt want to tell anyone how to run his educative system, it's not neccessarily bad if at least some things are unified. Like Univerity degrees and such things. That makes not only studying outside your country easier but also getting a job in other european states.

While every state right now has its own jurisdiction, it is everything but bad to have international collaboration, cooperation and at least some degree of international standards. Law enforcement passing the borders of a state can be made much easier for example.



kowenicki said:
maximrace said:

haha I'm not surprised this is coming from. One of the biggest most trusted research organisation publishing propaganda... You actually believe yourself don't you. Whatever makes your world turn I guess. I'm expecting your 'not propaganda' analysis on the numbers!

if's buts and maybe's

The whole premise of the calculations is loaded.

Similar arguments about not joining the euro... How did that turn out again.

I actually dont care too much either way if we do or dont, but talk of huge financial issues are over the top... embargos and sanctions are idiotic in the extreme.

The UK is a net importer with the EU.

 


kowenicki is right. This is why I said we don't actually have a clue what would happen and both pro EU and anti EU sides are talking absolute codswallop when they are proclaiming absolutes for what will happen.

It would certainly make sense for the EU to make new trade agreements similar to other countries that aren't in the EU as we buy a lot more than we sell. However they could also choose to make an example of us and impose punitive levies to try and cripple us. That would just mean for trade we would have to look to other countries, but we would also be freer to do this without the restrictions of the EU. Ultimately though, any such scenario would be detrimental to everyone involved.



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.