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Forums - General Discussion - Observation Shows Overwhelming Evidence for a Creator

HollyGamer said:
o_O.Q said:


now i'd like to preface this by saying that what follows will probably seem like the rantings of a crazy person but anyway i hate to break this to you but christians of this era worship the sun too... what you first have to understand is that sun worship is multifacted sure some people did worship the sun but others worshiped it as a symbol for intelligence

do you see the similarity? why do you think catholics worship on sunday when the bible says to keep the sabbath holy? its because the religion from the start was corrupted by pagan practices and this is clear to anyone who looks back at the real history of the religion

personally i'd advise anyone that is serious about christianity to research its history and seek out their own path to god individually you do not need to associate yourself with a church or a label to pursue that path... most churches exist today to make money and that's it

Yeah agree with u on the bold part,

back to Egypth and Rome and ancient reigion , it doesnt mean if they worshiping sun mean they know about the Intellegent Creator or worshiping the Intelligent Creator, if they now the Sun is created by Intelegent Creator then why would they worshiping the creation not the creator. They may have advance interm of science (math). But there is no relations that shows that they know about intellegent creations.

 

fair enough



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Torillian said:
Blob said:
Torillian said:
Blob said:


Funnily enough I know a theoretical physicist who told me that once you reach that level they stop teaching orbital theories and basically say they don't believe it. I'll have to ask him what their theoretical model currently is at some point. 

You'll have to let me know.  I'm sure it's a simplification of reality that works for us chemists, but I'd be curious to know how it differs from what physicists who look at these things in detail consider.  

I do know that it isn't about discrete orbits around an atom but more that there are electron clouds around the nucleus with a certain probability to find the electron in any given space arond it.  The idea that the elctrons only have specific quantized states that they can be in comes does seem to hold water as the absorbance lines from elements are very crisp and not the continuum you would expect if the elctrons were totally free around the nucleus.  My understanding of it is that because the electron acts as a wave as well as a particle there are only certain distances around the nucleus where it can exist and the waveform of the electron will not destructively interfere with itself.  

Anything beyond that level of understanding though I would have to read up on.  

 

Yeah the current model is a simplified version just to get the point across to the laymen. I'll have to remember to ask him as I keep forgetting or end up discussing other things with him.

So you're a chemist? In what field? 

bioinorganic chemistry, study of proteins that use metals either for their structure or their activity.  Most famous example of such a protein would be hemoglobin which has an Fe within its hemewhich is used for oxygen binding.  

 

Ah cool, I recently finished my nutrition degree which surprisingly had a lot more biochemistry and medicine than I ever thought It would. I'd imagine what youre doing would have gone far beyond anything I had to learn though.

Any interesting findings you're allowed to share?



HollyGamer said:
o_O.Q said:


now i'd like to preface this by saying that what follows will probably seem like the rantings of a crazy person but anyway i hate to break this to you but christians of this era worship the sun too... what you first have to understand is that sun worship is multifacted sure some people did worship the sun but others worshiped it as a symbol for intelligence

do you see the similarity? why do you think catholics worship on sunday when the bible says to keep the sabbath holy? its because the religion from the start was corrupted by pagan practices and this is clear to anyone who looks back at the real history of the religion

personally i'd advise anyone that is serious about christianity to research its history and seek out their own path to god individually you do not need to associate yourself with a church or a label to pursue that path... most churches exist today to make money and that's it

Yeah agree with u on the bold part,

back to Egypth and Rome and ancient reigion , it doesnt mean if they worshiping sun mean they know about the Intellegent Creator or worshiping the Intelligent Creator, if they now the Sun is created by Intelegent Creator then why would they worshiping the creation not the creator. They may have advance interm of science (math). But there is no relations that shows that they know about intellegent creations.

 

fair enough



Ka-pi96 said:
o_O.Q said:

its why the staff of horus is used as the main symbol for medical sciences

This is incorrect. Nothing to do with Horus. It's the rod of Asclepius, a Greek god of healing and medicine, and it is used because of the cult of Asclepeion's healing methods used in ancient Greece.


lol you do realise that a lot of the practices, knowledge and science from ancient Greece came from Egypt right?

That includes the caduceus

 

you think guys like pythagoras came up with all of the knowledge they had? lol no they learned it in Egypt and brought it up to Europe



Blob said:
Torillian said:

 

Yeah the current model is a simplified version just to get the point across to the laymen. I'll have to remember to ask him as I keep forgetting or end up discussing other things with him.

So you're a chemist? In what field? 

bioinorganic chemistry, study of proteins that use metals either for their structure or their activity.  Most famous example of such a protein would be hemoglobin which has an Fe within its hemewhich is used for oxygen binding.  

 

Ah cool, I recently finished my nutrition degree which surprisingly had a lot more biochemistry and medicine than I ever thought It would. I'd imagine what youre doing would have gone far beyond anything I had to learn though.

Any interesting findings you're allowed to share?


Most of my PhD research has involved proteins which react with nitric oxide to form nitrate.  Nitric oxide has turned out to be an important signalling molecule in the cardiovascular and nervous systems specifically, but we know that at higher concentrations it can be detrimental so work is being done to look at the systems by which your body might get rid of nitric oxide so that it doesn't build up to detrimental levels.  One such protein is Myoglobin which some previous research had indicated would produce high concentrations of other toxic compounds so it couldn't be the main way in which nitric oxide is detoxified.  My research indicated that this wasn't actuallythe case and that high concentrations of toxic compounds were not built up during the reaction.  It also seems to indicate that the current assumed reaction mechanism of forming peroxynitrite at the heme which will then rearrange in some way to form nitrate might not be true which would indicate a concerted reaction between oxygen and nitric oxide to form nitrate.  If you have access to ACS here's the link to the article: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ic400697a

Right now I'm writing up a paper on a protein from Tuberculosis that does the same reaction which we are interested in because it does the same reaction as myoglobin but does it incredibly efficiently.  All the experiments are done and now I'm working on the write up with my advisor.  

Mostly I'm just writing my thesis though which will be done in two months and I'll finally have my PhD and move on in my career.

Apologies if that was an overly long explanation, and we're quickly veering off topic so if you'd like to continue the discussion beyond this I'll suggest we do so through walls or PMs.



...

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Dgc1808 said:

All of your points are arguments from ignorance. None of them point to a god. You simply state that you don't understand how they can be how they are without god. The problem is your knowledge and nothing else. You can shove god in as the explanation where ever you feel like, but even if there are no other explanations there's still no way to assess the accuracy of yours.



"All of your points are arguments from ignorance."

 

with that being said why not list one of the two i expounded on and clarify how its ignorant?

 

"None of them point to a god"

 

they point to intelligence... observing the world as a human its quite clear that regardless of the diversity in nature laws that exhibit a great complexity are generally created by us

therefore complex laws from our experience are directly associated with intelligence do you disagree with that ascertion?

 

"You simply state that you don't understand how they can be how they are without god"

 

i clarified this above according to our experience of the world complex laws appear to only be formed by entities that exhibit intelligence

 

" The problem is your knowledge and nothing else."

 

well there is no information that contradicts my assertion or in other words no one can definitively prove that the universe was not created so...



o_O.Q said:

"None of them point to a god"

they point to intelligence... observing the world as a human its quite clear that regardless of the diversity in nature laws that exhibit a great complexity are generally created by us

therefore complex laws from our experience are directly associated with intelligence do you disagree with that ascertion?

"You simply state that you don't understand how they can be how they are without god"

i clarified this above according to our experience of the world complex laws appear to only be formed by entities that exhibit intelligence

" The problem is your knowledge and nothing else."

well there is no information that contradicts my assertion or in other words no one can definitively prove that the universe was not created so...

1) They do not point to an intelligence. These "laws" (I'm not even sure I'd call them laws) you're referring to are just descriptions. Nothing points to them being proscribed by anything other than us as a way to desribe our world. The examples you gave demonstrate you're just making whimsical ascertions.  Hot and cold are opposites? What does that mean? There's just more heat or less heat. If one room is 10 kelvin and another is 150 kelvin which one is the hot based on your experience? What is the opposite of 2 degrees Kelvin based on your human experience? 

2) "there is no information that contradicts my assertion or in other words no one can definitively prove that the universe was not created so"

There's your problem again. "My creator fits here and you can't prove to me that my creator doesn't exist". Nothing contradicts Last Thursday-ism or Solipsism either. I guess those are both right.



4 ≈ One

Dgc1808 said:

o_O.Q said:

 "None of them point to a god"

they point to intelligence... observing the world as a human its quite clear that regardless of the diversity in nature laws that exhibit a great complexity are generally created by us

therefore complex laws from our experience are directly associated with intelligence do you disagree with that ascertion?

"You simply state that you don't understand how they can be how they are without god"

i clarified this above according to our experience of the world complex laws appear to only be formed by entities that exhibit intelligence

" The problem is your knowledge and nothing else."

well there is no information that contradicts my assertion or in other words no one can definitively prove that the universe was not created so...

1) They do not point to an intelligence. These "laws" (I'm not even sure I'd call them laws) you're referring to are just descriptions. Nothing points to them being proscribed by anything other than us as a way to desribe our world. The examples you gave demonstrate you're just making whimsical ascertions.  Hot and cold are opposites? What does that mean? There's just more heat or less heat. If one room is 10 kelvin and another is 150 kelvin which one is the hot based on your experience? What is the opposite of 2 degrees Kelvin based on your human experience? 

2) "there is no information that contradicts my assertion or in other words no one can definitively prove that the universe was not created so"

There's your problem again. "My creator fits here and you can't prove to me that my creator doesn't exist". Nothing contradicts Last Thursday-ism or Solipsism either. I guess those are both right.

 

"These "laws" (I'm not even sure I'd call them laws) you're referring to are just descriptions. "

yes laws, rules etc are generally descriptive since they describe conditions that processes function by that should be obvious

 

" Hot and cold are opposites? What does that mean? "

"There's just more heat or less heat."

 

lol it means just what i posted the opposite of something is the lack or reversal of it or in other words when there's less of something 

when there's less light you move closer to darkness

when there's less happiness you go closer to sadness

when there's less good there's more bad 

when there's less freedom you go closer to slavery etc etc etc

 

"If one room is 10 kelvin and another is 150 kelvin which one is the hot based on your experience? What is the opposite of 2 degrees Kelvin based on your human experience? "

 

this is why i said that there is a spectrum between two opposing forces or in other words there's a scale between the two

 

"There's your problem again. "My creator fits here and you can't prove to me that my creator doesn't exist""

 

i backed what i said up by stating that complex laws are generally creations coming from intelligence if you disagree with that that's cool



So your basis of argument for a creator is because we can't explain or don't understand the Universe , then the only answer is that we cannot because of a creator. I guess the Earth was flat when people believed it to be, and only became spherical once it was discovered to be as such. It's almost as if you believe scientific discovery and understanding will come to a standstill and not progress along with the human species.



Very interesting... and the opposite of DNA or RNA is?

Not everything have an opposite. And sine or cosine aren't opossites, they are just a waveform.

Why do we keep creating this religious threads on VGC that is basically one side that won't ever accept that god may not exist or be as they describe while the other side won't accept that we just have to believe something is true if it can't be proved or disproved... it's just useless.



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