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Forums - Politics Discussion - Indiana Governer signs bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers.

gatito said:
This is the 21ts century, why can't we all get along? We're all human.


It's human nature to more or less not get along. :D



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daredevil.shark said:
TruckOSaurus said:

Then I'll ask you to refrain from posting any further if you're not interested in going into the details of why you agree. Should you want to expand, feel free to keep posting.


Much appriciated. Thanks. I understand what are saying.

I hope you read my post to you. Being a shepard is not about being polite. It's about doing as much as you can for others.

Doing something for others is not a reward for you in heaven. It is simply God's will, your behavior should reflect that submission to His will, not because it will give you something to do in Heaven. You need to study more before you put yourself in a position to discipline others. Your duty as a shepard is a serious responsibility, and taking it on before you have the fortitude to enact it properly will only push others away.

ie: the role of disciplining the sheep is for the shepard, not for the other sheep.



Runa216 said:
sc94597 said:
I'm done in this reply tree, as I feel the discussion has been getting too abstractly semantic. My original point was that no country is perfect, not even Canada. It's best for one to look at the problems in their own area before trying to judge others.

Good for you.  And I'm making the point the sky looks blue most of the time.  

Congratulations on making a broad statement of a point that nobody is debating against. 

My issue with your post (and other posts of yours) was that it was marginalizing (whether intentionally or not) the issue of anti-LGBT people and racist people in your country while conflating it as an American problem. Saying things like, in Canada we are more accepting than some Americans doesn't help the Canadians who are beaten or murdered for their sexual orientation and/or race. Possibly you can focus on your own country and the problems you have there with race and sexuality before trying to judge a whole different country for having the very same problems, you know, just at a more noticeable scale because the population is ten times greater and the media presence is much larger. Just because you don't hear about it in Canada doesn't mean it isn't there.

For example, here is an interesting article from 2014 about how anti-gay hate crimes are 2/3rds likely to be violent rather than purely michevious in Canada. 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/gay-hate-crimes-far-more-likely-to-involve-violence-statscan-says/article19350604/

"Police reported 1,414 hate-motivated criminal incidents in 2012, up 82 from the previous year, Statistics Canada said in its latest report on hate crimes."

1414/35 million = 4/10,000 people experience a hate crime. 

Meanwhile in the United States. 

"Agencies last year reported 5,796 hate crime incidents involving 6,718 offenses. The FBI has just released its hate crime statistics report for 2012, and the numbers show that we as a nation still have a way to go toward alleviating these crimes that have such a devastating impact on communities."

 

6718/314 million = 2/10,000 people experience a hate crime. 



sc94597 said:
Runa216 said:

Good for you.  And I'm making the point the sky looks blue most of the time.  

Congratulations on making a broad statement of a point that nobody is debating against. 

My issue with your post (and other posts of yours) was that it was marginalizing (whether intentionally or not) the issue of anti-LGBT people and racist people in your country while conflating it as an American problem. Saying things like, in Canada we are more accepting than some Americans doesn't help the Canadians who are beaten or murdered for their sexual orientation and/or race. Possibly you can focus on your own country and the problems you have there with race and sexuality before trying to judge a whole different country for having the very same problems, you know, just at a more noticeable scale because the population is ten times greater and the media presence is much larger. Just because you don't hear about it in Canada doesn't mean it isn't there.

For example, here is an interesting article from 2014 about how anti-gay hate crimes are 2/3rds likely to be violent rather than purely michevious in Canada. 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/gay-hate-crimes-far-more-likely-to-involve-violence-statscan-says/article19350604/

"Police reported 1,414 hate-motivated criminal incidents in 2012, up 82 from the previous year, Statistics Canada said in its latest report on hate crimes."

1414/35 million = 4/10,000 people experience a hate crime. 

Meanwhile in the United States. 

"Agencies last year reported 5,796 hate crime incidents involving 6,718 offenses. The FBI has just released its hate crime statistics report for 2012, and the numbers show that we as a nation still have a way to go toward alleviating these crimes that have such a devastating impact on communities."

 

6718/314 million = 2/10,000 people experience a hate crime. 


I thought you said you weren't going to respond anymore. 



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Runa216 said:

I thought you said you weren't going to respond anymore. 

I said I wasn't responding in that quote tree between me and Aura as it was getting heated for no reason.  If people are so much more homophobic and racist in the United States than in Canada, why are hate crimes around the same proportions? 



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S.T.A.G.E. said:
Aeolus451 said:
This is an interesting thread, stage. It's nice being neutral on topics like this.

I like to see peoples opinions on situtations like this. There are so many people with various thought processes is. I always think its a good thing when human beings can sit at the table and seriously discuss things like this where it affects human lives.


I agree but I doubt that those two sides would ever come to any kind of agreement except for "agree to disagree". It's nigh impossible for either side of the discussion to empathise with the other. The discussion is still good to have though.



Aeolus451 said:

Ah, I like to enjoy my surroundings and be around like minded people. I prefer a positive environment in which to live in. So I'm completely fine with moving to such a place. If there's a few people within a comunity that don't like me then I'll just ignore 'em but if the majority don't want me there, I'll move. I'm not gonna waste my time on trying to change people's minds or try to force them to. It takes time for people's way of thinking to change.

Would you live in the parts of Mexico that are controlled by cartels or live in North Korea as a foreigner? I wouldn't. There's plenty of places in the states that i would not live there because I'm not wanted there or the place has too much baggage/danger to me.

What does race have to do with this?

Should in my opinion, religous people be able to deny homosexuals services from their business because of their religion? Yes. Why? Both sides have equal rights so neither side should be able to force the other to do something against their will for the most part. A business is privately owned. It's not a public building or a government building. 

not everyone has such ease of mibility to just pick up and move should they be made uncomefortable, felt unwelcome or be flat out descriminated against. Laws like this make it so that comunities can make individuals feel unwelcome. When businesses serve everyone people don't feel unwelcome. When the homo verboten signs start to show up it will change it quite a bit.

Your example of places should show you that not all people are able to leave when its dangerous. you are also starting to compare gereral danger to being discriminated agaist for being who you are.

Race, is where much of the history of these laws can be seen. What people are cababple of when groupthink sets in and it beomes ok for a majority to desciminate/ harass and persecute a minoirty. Also many myself included would consider homosexuality closer to race than to religion since its how people are.

Why should they deny homesexuals? where in their religion does it say to do such a thing? If they are taking a part that is mostly abandoned that mentions homosexuality to be a sin, yet not denying buisness to other sinners how is that being religeous? and actually no, they don't have equal rights, religion is protected under the constitution and in the state of Indiana, beign gay not so much. The law allows people of a religion to desciminate. It doesn't sunnedly make it legal to descriminate against them actually.

Businesnness have to follow the law because they became legal entinies under the law there are so many laws that they have to follow it's not even funny. 



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Wonktonodi said:

Why should they deny homesexuals? where in their religion does it say to do such a thing? If they are taking a part that is mostly abandoned that mentions homosexuality to be a sin, yet not denying buisness to other sinners how is that being religeous? and actually no, they don't have equal rights, religion is protected under the constitution and in the state of Indiana, beign gay not so much. The law allows people of a religion to desciminate. It doesn't sunnedly make it legal to descriminate against them actually.

I'm not a subscriber of any religion, let alone their particular religion so I can't say exactly, but I think the argument the bakeries had (which this law is a reaction to) was that they don't want to take part in the ceremony which they considered it sinful to do so by producing the wedding cake. It isn't like they wouldn't sell a cupcake to a gay person, they just don't want to be involved in a gay wedding (making a wedding cake is more than selling the cake, you have to prepare it for the wedding specifically, have multiple corespondences with the couple, ask questions regarding their wedding, etc, etc.) As a 5 on the kinsey scale, I think it is more wrong to sue these people or shut down their business for standing by their beliefs, even if their beliefs are hurtful, in my eyes wrong, and illogical, which I say as an athiest. 



WhiteEaglePL said:
That's discrimination.

But It's not worse than PROMOTING gayness.


what exactly is promoting gayness? pride prades? maiage equality? trying to get equal protection under the law?  Or just a person being gay having a partner and not hiding in the closet? Gay people in the US and worldwide already suffer from many discriminatory laws and are denided acess to many institutions. You think that legalized descrimination is not worse than people fighting for rights? I really don't get it.