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Forums - Politics Discussion - UK General Election 2015

Ka-pi96 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Democracy does have some advantages, that is true. Still not very good though.

You think the politicians that want to remain in the EU are the very worst?
So you think planning for the countries future is bad? Just because there are some immigrants or whatever?

Could you point out the part where I said planning for the countries future is bad?

And while I agree the politicians who want to remain in the EU are the very worst, that seems to imply they are a small fraction where the majority of politicians want in while the majority of people want out.

Immigration is one of the problems with the EU, under better circumstances the UK economy would be dynamic enough to cope with large numbers of immigrants but currently it is not and therefore the immigration system needs to be merit based.

Remaining in the EU = planning for the future.

What about immigration is even a problem with the EU though? It only gives people in other EU countries a right to move here if they choose to, what's wrong with that? It should be merit based, if they can't get a job here to support themselves then they won't be able to stay here, will they? If they stay here regardless then isn't that the UK governments fault for funding them rather than the fault of the EU?

And my opinion is that Remaining in the EU = Bad planning for the future

An massive oversupply of immigration can cause umemployment which will lead to increased government payments to UK citizens who can't find work and immigrant's can claim in work benefits that cost the government money which they can't avoid paying.

And I will say that nothing is the fault of the EU, the EU is a flawed concept in many ways and the UK government needs to step up and take responsibility for the mistake of joining by removing itself from the EU permanently.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

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Ka-pi96 said:

Remaining in the EU = planning for the future.

What about immigration is even a problem with the EU though? It only gives people in other EU countries a right to move here if they choose to, what's wrong with that? It should be merit based, if they can't get a job here to support themselves then they won't be able to stay here, will they? If they stay here regardless then isn't that the UK governments fault for funding them rather than the fault of the EU?

I agree with you 100% on immigration. Oftentimes, immigration is often used as a scapegoat for other ills in society. Immigrants are usually blamed when the problems lie in the employment market, welfare state, etc.

One issue I hold with the EU on the immigration front, however, is that there clearly isn't enough "political capital" for unlimited immigration, and so we have this situation where people from the EU can move into Britain at the expense of people not from the EU. That's certainly not fair, or beneficial for either the people of Britain, or the people from countries outside the EU.

As for your other comment about planning for the future, not sure if serious. Have you seen how much the Euro is tanking in recent months? There's a reason for that: nobody who has skin in the game (ie, money involved) has any confidence in the future of the EU and the Euro.



Ka-pi96 said:
SlayerRondo said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Remaining in the EU = planning for the future.

What about immigration is even a problem with the EU though? It only gives people in other EU countries a right to move here if they choose to, what's wrong with that? It should be merit based, if they can't get a job here to support themselves then they won't be able to stay here, will they? If they stay here regardless then isn't that the UK governments fault for funding them rather than the fault of the EU?

And my opinion is that Remaining in the EU = Bad planning for the future

An massive oversupply of immigration can cause umemployment which will lead to increased government payments to UK citizens who can't find work and immigrant's can claim in work benefits that cost the government money which they can't avoid paying. And I will say that nothing is the fault of the EU, the EU is a flawed concept in many ways and the UK government needs to step up and take responsibility for this mistake by remove itself from the EU permanently.

Why can't they avoid paying it? Why don't they just bring in a new law that you have to either be a UK citizen or have worked full time in the UK for a minimum amount of time (like 3 or 5 years or something) before you are entitled to any benefits?

If people really think immigrants are that big of a problem they surely wouldn't have any issues getting such a law to pass...

That would not solve the problem of UK citizens becoming unemployed and then claiming benefits because of over supply of immigration. In that scenario the UK citizen loses his job and the government loses money.

They should make the in work benefits (and out work benefits) for migrants ot availible for 10 years at least.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

Ka-pi96 said:

Remaining in the EU = planning for the future.

What about immigration is even a problem with the EU though? It only gives people in other EU countries a right to move here if they choose to, what's wrong with that? It should be merit based, if they can't get a job here to support themselves then they won't be able to stay here, will they? If they stay here regardless then isn't that the UK governments fault for funding them rather than the fault of the EU?

Part of the EU Mandate means that EU members living in the UK must have the same benefits as a normal UK citizen. This however, due to the way the UK funds many of it's things, is open to abuse. Although many EU citizens are indeed coming to work, there is some Health Tourism going on, the idea that people can get child benefit for children not even living in the UK, stuff like that.

Loop holes need to be closed or laws changed to close them. But also restricting our own benefits to limit what our own citizens can get should be the first step. If you limit child benefits to just the first 2 children, this law will change for EU citizens too. Make it so you (or immediate family member) have to pay into the system for 2 years before getting NHS treatment. Things like that.

EDT: I typed all this, went away from my desk for 5 minutes and you guys have the conversation without me. :(



Hmm, pie.

Praying to God Ed Milliband doesn't become pm. What a farce that would be.

There should be a Tory/SNP coalition where they do that "english votes for English laws, Scottish votes for Scottish laws" thing and just leave each other to it



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Machina said:

It's not legal under EU law, which is precisely why none of these suggestions have already happened.

As someone not in the know, why is it illegal to change the benefit laws of your own country? 



Hmm, pie.

Ka-pi96 said:
kowenicki said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Democracy is what's best for the country?

Democracy is one of the worst forms of government possible! The majority of people are too stupid to deserve to have any say on government issues but are allowed to vote anyway turning it into just a petty popularity contest. It's an absolute farce!

and there we have it.... I know best politics. 

This is condescending nonsense I'm afraid.  Having daid that, I kind of agree to be honest... but stupid people are allowed a vote as much as intelligent people under our system, so suck it up.

What gives you the intellectual high ground to be so definitive on the EU question and say the silly public dont deserve a vote?

I live in the North of England and have to put up with seeing areas where "if a donkey had a red rosette it would still elected", not my words... but oh so very, very true.  If you actually explore policies with many of those people they are bordeline Nazi's... yet they vote Labour.  Should we ban them from voting too? 

I never said that I thought I was qualified to vote (not that I plan to either)...

The only thing the general public know about the EU is the media hate campaign it gets that blames everything on the EU and immigrants. The actual benefits of the EU aren't known or even cared about by those people. For business and the economy however the EU is of huge importance. Sure there are some problems with the EU at the moment, but they weren't there before and they can be fixed. Having that economic co-operation however is very important for the future of the country. The UK is just too small and weak to do much by itself, some resource countries can get away with that but the UK isn't particularly resource rich. Only together with the EU can the UK hope to be an economic and political powerhouse again.


This x1000. Most Brits don't even know what the EU does and that's due to 2 things: 1) the EU is really difficult to comprehend and the way it works doesn't help either and 2) British media coverage around the EU is Bullshit with a capital B, the hate and misinformation is unbelieveable. Leaving the EU would be a really bad thing for the UK economy, and most UK leaders know that they are just under huge pressure to distance themselves because of wrong public opinion. A oversimplified summary why it would be bad: Between 60-80% of British trade comes from the EU, now because the UK is a member of the EU they have access to the European Free Trade zone and aren't restricted by tolls and tariffs. In return they need to pay a share for the EU budget ( which is way smaller than the gains from the FTA) and get a vote on EU politics. Now if the UK decides to leave the EU, they also leave the FTA and again get tolls/tariffs and taxes for 60-80% of their trade, this would murder the British economy so they would ask access to the FTA again ( just like Switzerland has access to the EU FTA). To get this access they would again need to pay a share in the European budget ( so on the costs nothing would have changed) but they won't have a vote anymore on the politics. So in leaving the EU, Britain would have less autonomy than before because in the EU they can block what they don't want outside they would need to accept all policies for access of the FTA. Ofcourse this has nothing to do with the immigration and other problems that have better ways of solving it instead of just leaving the EU. Is the EU perfect? NO, but is has made all of our lives better.People who think leaving the EUis a good thing should really do a bit more research instead of just blindly believing mainstream media that jjust reflects public opinion. I'd even dare to say we need more EU, most problems would be gone with a stronger political union. There is just a huge perception problem ( and that's mainly thanks to the EU itself). 



Machina said:
The Fury said:

As someone not in the know, why is it illegal to change the benefit laws of your own country? 

It's not illegal to change social security legislation, but it is illegal to do so in any way that would potentially restrict access to them for non-British EU citizens.

But you are not restrictioning access to non-UK citizens only, you are restricting for everyone, UK citizen or not. Wait... Spain has something like this already in place, how are they getting away with it? In order to claim benefits in Spain (not sure which) you have to pay in from employment before hand. Not sure why UK are special.

This is ignoring the fact that as a person not entitled to any benefits (other than maybe 25% off my council tax because I live alone, which is still not enough in my view), I think we should restrict most UK, EU and Rest of World people from claiming any benefits at all. 



Hmm, pie.

Nirvana_Nut85 said:
kopstudent89 said:

Well yes considering that I'm one of the people he wants out of the country


What do you mean? I checked the policies they would implement and it seems pretty fair in regards to immigration if that is what you are referring to.


I've been following UKIP for a few years now and Farage and his party have garnered quite the reputation. I don't think they're that fair in those aspects. Also Farage with all due respect is a joke. They're now less contrversial than before now that they've grown in stature and they do make good points (rarely)  but it's expected now that they've gained that momentum to make a push for a seat.

Anyways, I do think it's going to be an interesting election since the other parties have been a farce the past few years. And I know UKIP getting a seat wouldn't affect my status but I still can't agree what his party stands for. I'm just sharing my opinion as an outsider who follows the news. 



maximrace said:
Ka-pi96 said:
kowenicki said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Democracy is what's best for the country?

Democracy is one of the worst forms of government possible! The majority of people are too stupid to deserve to have any say on government issues but are allowed to vote anyway turning it into just a petty popularity contest. It's an absolute farce!

and there we have it.... I know best politics. 

This is condescending nonsense I'm afraid.  Having daid that, I kind of agree to be honest... but stupid people are allowed a vote as much as intelligent people under our system, so suck it up.

What gives you the intellectual high ground to be so definitive on the EU question and say the silly public dont deserve a vote?

I live in the North of England and have to put up with seeing areas where "if a donkey had a red rosette it would still elected", not my words... but oh so very, very true.  If you actually explore policies with many of those people they are bordeline Nazi's... yet they vote Labour.  Should we ban them from voting too? 

I never said that I thought I was qualified to vote (not that I plan to either)...

The only thing the general public know about the EU is the media hate campaign it gets that blames everything on the EU and immigrants. The actual benefits of the EU aren't known or even cared about by those people. For business and the economy however the EU is of huge importance. Sure there are some problems with the EU at the moment, but they weren't there before and they can be fixed. Having that economic co-operation however is very important for the future of the country. The UK is just too small and weak to do much by itself, some resource countries can get away with that but the UK isn't particularly resource rich. Only together with the EU can the UK hope to be an economic and political powerhouse again.


This x1000. Most Brits don't even know what the EU does and that's due to 2 things: 1) the EU is really difficult to comprehend and the way it works doesn't help either and 2) British media coverage around the EU is Bullshit with a capital B, the hate and misinformation is unbelieveable. Leaving the EU would be a really bad thing for the UK economy, and most UK leaders know that they are just under huge pressure to distance themselves because of wrong public opinion. A oversimplified summary why it would be bad: Between 60-80% of British trade comes from the EU, now because the UK is a member of the EU they have access to the European Free Trade zone and aren't restricted by tolls and tariffs. In return they need to pay a share for the EU budget ( which is way smaller than the gains from the FTA) and get a vote on EU politics. Now if the UK decides to leave the EU, they also leave the FTA and again get tolls/tariffs and taxes for 60-80% of their trade, this would murder the British economy so they would ask access to the FTA again ( just like Switzerland has access to the EU FTA). To get this access they would again need to pay a share in the European budget ( so on the costs nothing would have changed) but they won't have a vote anymore on the politics. So in leaving the EU, Britain would have less autonomy than before because in the EU they can block what they don't want outside they would need to accept all policies for access of the FTA. Ofcourse this has nothing to do with the immigration and other problems that have better ways of solving it instead of just leaving the EU. Is the EU perfect? NO, but is has made all of our lives better.People who think leaving the EUis a good thing should really do a bit more research instead of just blindly believing mainstream media that jjust reflects public opinion. I'd even dare to say we need more EU, most problems would be gone with a stronger political union. There is just a huge perception problem ( and that's mainly thanks to the EU itself). 

The UK exports more to the EU than it imports so the EU would have more to lose than the UK by not having a free trade deal.

In the UK left the EU it would encourage other Euro skeptic movements and people which could lead to a domino effect where the EU, which is on shaky legs already could colapse.

The EU restricts the UK from forming free trade deals with other countries aroud the world such as India and Australia which hurts the UK economy and distorts trade towards the EU, potentially being the reason why the UK trades so much with the EU.

The EU is controled by Germany, greater political union would mean the Nazi's won.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE