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UK General Election 2015

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maximrace said:
kowenicki said:
Ka-pi96 said:

SlayerRondo said the opposite...

He's wrong then.  I misread him.  The EU has more to lose than we do from making trade with us difficult.


Lol keep dreaming that, the UK needs the EU far more than the other way around. A lot of the EU money goes back to britain and they block a lot of great intiatives because their anti EU stand. If the Brits want to leave, good riddance but the consequence for Britain will be way harsher than most imagine. UK  isn't the same mighty power it was a few decennia ago that always gets what it wants, deals will have to be made. Deals which will be worse than what they have now with the EU

How original, we dont think we are, we just know we are a major economy that doesnt need the "crutch" of the EU.

The rest is just wrong...

Which are these great initiatives that have been blocked by us?   There arent any.

What is the net cash you allege we RECEIVE from the EU in hand outs?  We don't, we are a net contributor... always have been.

What is this mysterios trade surplus we have suddenly managed to achieve with the EU?  There isnt one, we have a large trade deficit with the EU.  EU member states make more from us than we make from them, they wont throw that in the dustbin.

Its time to declare your interest, which country are you from? 

 

 



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kowenicki

How original, we dont think we are, we just know we are a major economy that doesnt need the "crutch" of the EU.

The rest is just wrong...

Which are these great initiatives that have been blocked by us?   There arent any.

What is the net cash you allege we RECEIVE from the EU in hand outs?  We don't, we are a net contributor... always have been.

What is this mysterios trade surplus we have suddenly managed to achieve with the EU?  There isnt one, we have a large trade deficit with the EU.  EU member states make more from us than we make from them, they wont throw that in the dustbin.

Its time to declare your interest, which country are you from? 

 

There are many initiatives blocked by the UK, the biggest was the social charter. Also all wealthy countries are net contributors and when you look at the numbers the UK has nothing to complain about. They payed 6,27b£ net in 2010 that's a measely 71 euro per capita, Denmark pays 220, Netherlands 150 etc and the pure numbers don't even show the advantages for being in the EU. GDP of Britain has grown 25b£ thanks to the single market, EU trade is worth 200b£ yearly and 3,5m jobs are linked to the single market in the EU. The UK recieves a huge amount of FDI ( around 1,125 trillion $) part thanks to being in that single market, half those companies moving to another country would be a social disaster ( all eurostat numbers). EU migration has resulted in 20bn£ worth of taxes ( which is more then the social security cost of those people).And again leaving the EU would mean they still need to follow the rules to access the market yet they won't have anything to say anymore

Nobody is saying the EU is perfect because it isn't ( it has a lot of problems, but those aren't solved by leaving they are solved by staying and reforming) but the benefits are way bigger than just the numbers, the amount of money the UK recieves from the ESF and regional funds is big. Same with funding for education and research. The European single market has driven more growth in the UK than would have been possible without it, ofcourse you have the red tape and all the rules but you can't have a single market without regulating it, without all those rules the market wouldn't work. I just can't see how somebody who has a basic understanding of how the EU works ( and not the biased one most Brits have) can think leaving would benefit them. The EU is the most prosperous zone in the world it has enormous negotiationpower, good luck with securing FTA deals without the EU power behind you, you'll only lose more money. TTIP will be a far better deal for the UK than a deal they would have negotiated on their own. In this globalised world you need to work together to be strong, going in alone will only result in losses. And that's the main strength of the EU that most overlook, a strong block that can dictate it's rules across the world which wouldn't be possible as a country alone.

Also why does it matter where I'm from? Do I need to be from the UK to partake in a discussion about British/EU politics? I study International and European politics at one of the leading universities in my country, I think that's enough kwalification to have my say about European politics.



maximrace said:
kowenicki

How original, we dont think we are, we just know we are a major economy that doesnt need the "crutch" of the EU.

The rest is just wrong...

Which are these great initiatives that have been blocked by us?   There arent any.

What is the net cash you allege we RECEIVE from the EU in hand outs?  We don't, we are a net contributor... always have been.

What is this mysterios trade surplus we have suddenly managed to achieve with the EU?  There isnt one, we have a large trade deficit with the EU.  EU member states make more from us than we make from them, they wont throw that in the dustbin.

Its time to declare your interest, which country are you from? 

 

There are many initiatives blocked by the UK, the biggest was the social charter. Also all wealthy countries are net contributors and when you look at the numbers the UK has nothing to complain about. They payed 6,27b£ net in 2010 that's a measely 71 euro per capita, Denmark pays 220, Netherlands 150 etc and the pure numbers don't even show the advantages for being in the EU. GDP of Britain has grown 25b£ thanks to the single market, EU trade is worth 200b£ yearly and 3,5m jobs are linked to the single market in the EU. The UK recieves a huge amount of FDI ( around 1,125 trillion $) part thanks to being in that single market, half those companies moving to another country would be a social disaster ( all eurostat numbers). EU migration has resulted in 20bn£ worth of taxes ( which is more then the social security cost of those people).And again leaving the EU would mean they still need to follow the rules to access the market yet they won't have anything to say anymore

Nobody is saying the EU is perfect because it isn't ( it has a lot of problems, but those aren't solved by leaving they are solved by staying and reforming) but the benefits are way bigger than just the numbers, the amount of money the UK recieves from the ESF and regional funds is big. Same with funding for education and research. The European single market has driven more growth in the UK than would have been possible without it, ofcourse you have the red tape and all the rules but you can't have a single market without regulating it, without all those rules the market wouldn't work. I just can't see how somebody who has a basic understanding of how the EU works ( and not the biased one most Brits have) can think leaving would benefit them. The EU is the most prosperous zone in the world it has enormous negotiationpower, good luck with securing FTA deals without the EU power behind you, you'll only lose more money. TTIP will be a far better deal for the UK than a deal they would have negotiated on their own. In this globalised world you need to work together to be strong, going in alone will only result in losses. And that's the main strength of the EU that most overlook, a strong block that can dictate it's rules across the world which wouldn't be possible as a country alone.

Also why does it matter where I'm from? Do I need to be from the UK to partake in a discussion about British/EU politics? I study International and European politics at one of the leading universities in my country, I think that's enough kwalification to have my say about European politics.


I didnt say that most of the big countries arent net contributors.  You said we have a lot to lose?  I disagreed and laid out some facts.

and no... you dont have to be from the UK to take part in the discussion, but it is material where you are from.  Whats the big secret?  And studying politics doesnt make your opinion any more valid I'm afraid whatever you may think.

It staggers me that people think big government and especially large Bloc's (intentional) are not dangerous.

 



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I plan to vote conservative because:

-They've done a pretty good job sorting out the economy so far, high employment. Yes it's been tough but blame the clowns in the red party who ran up hundreds of billions of debt BEFORE the financial crisis even happened.

-They promise a referendum on EU membership. IMO the negatives of being in the EU far outweigh the positives.

-Continue the policy of increasing the income tax threshold. It makes quite a difference to me.


I'm not voting Labour, as they still aren't changed enough, and are not the party they used to be that stood up for the workers.

Not voting Lib Dem because they are generally clueless, they have naive policies that would only work in some kind of peaceful utopia.

-Not voting UKIP because they don't have enough popularity to form a government.



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kowenicki said:


I didnt day that most of the big countries arent net contributors.  You said we have a lot to lose?  I disagreed and laid out some facts.

and no... you dont have to be from the UK to take part in the discussion, but it is material where you are from.  Whats the big secret?  And studying politics doesnt make your opinion any more valid I'm afraid whatever you may think.

It staggers me that people think big government and especially large Bloc's (intentional) are not dangerous.

 

 

Where do I imply you saying you don't think that? Just pointing out a fact. And I proved you have a lot to lose with some other facts. Also again where I'm from doesn't really matter because I don't let my countries bias judge my own view ( but if you insist, I'm Belgian). Ofcourse studying politics doesn't make my opinion more valid than someone else, everyone can have a valid opinion about politics because that's just what politics are, an opinion on how you do something. But the EU is so difficult to understand most people don't get what it does and why it's good or bad, resulting in a not correct or biased opinion. That's an issue you don't have if you study the area, it gives you a neutral view on it and helps you form your own opinion and not one of the media or other people. Again I won't say the EU is perfect because it isn't, but leaving it won't help matters it'll only make them worse. The EU needs to be reformed not abandoned.

Also, it staggers me that people think small government and outsourcing is not dangerous, the last 20-30 years have proved neoliberalism caused a lot of problems , but that's a whole other debate that's off topic here.



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maximrace said:
kowenicki said:


I didnt day that most of the big countries arent net contributors.  You said we have a lot to lose?  I disagreed and laid out some facts.

and no... you dont have to be from the UK to take part in the discussion, but it is material where you are from.  Whats the big secret?  And studying politics doesnt make your opinion any more valid I'm afraid whatever you may think.

It staggers me that people think big government and especially large Bloc's (intentional) are not dangerous.

 

 

Where do I imply you saying you don't think that? Just pointing out a fact. And I proved you have a lot to lose with some other facts. Also again where I'm from doesn't really matter because I don't let my countries bias judge my own view ( but if you insist, I'm Belgian). Ofcourse studying politics doesn't make my opinion more valid than someone else, everyone can have a valid opinion about politics because that's just what politics are, an opinion on how you do something. But the EU is so difficult to understand most people don't get what it does and why it's good or bad, resulting in a not correct or biased opinion. That's an issue you don't have if you study the area, it gives you a neutral view on it and helps you form your own opinion and not one of the media or other people. Again I won't say the EU is perfect because it isn't, but leaving it won't help matters it'll only make them worse. The EU needs to be reformed not abandoned.

Also, it staggers me that people think small government and outsourcing is not dangerous, the last 20-30 years have proved neoliberalism caused a lot of problems , but that's a whole other debate that's off topic here.


now I understand and I dont blame you for thinking as you do...



I'm not really here!

Link: Shipment History Since 1995


kowenicki said:


now I understand and I dont blame you for thinking as you do...


The fact you try to spin this in something about nationality instead of pure factual arguments shows me you really don't have an idea about how the EU works. I'll reply when your able to make decent argument instead of low jabs like these



maximrace said:
kowenicki said:


now I understand and I dont blame you for thinking as you do...


The fact you try to spin this in something about nationality instead of pure factual arguments shows me you really don't have an idea about how the EU works. I'll reply when your able to make decent argument instead of low jabs like these


It isnt a jab.  It is bout self interest.  I believe our best interests are out of the EU and if I was Belgian I would think my best interests are best served in the EU.  Thats not a jab, its common sense, and if you are studying european politics in said country... even more so.  I suspect there is a very decent chance you may end up working in Brussels or some affiliation of it.  I dont blame you for having the opinion you do, I'd probably have the same in you shoes. 

I have to say though that to think this isnt all about countries self interests and national identity is rather naive.

I'll have to leave it there, off to watch the footy.



I'm not really here!

Link: Shipment History Since 1995


beeje13 said:
I plan to vote conservative because:

-They've done a pretty good job sorting out the economy so far, high employment. Yes it's been tough but blame the clowns in the red party who ran up hundreds of billions of debt BEFORE the financial crisis even happened. 

-They promise a referendum on EU membership. IMO the negatives of being in the EU far outweigh the positives.

-Continue the policy of increasing the income tax threshold. It makes quite a difference to me.


I'm not voting Labour, as they still aren't changed enough, and are not the party they used to be that stood up for the workers.

Not voting Lib Dem because they are generally clueless, they have naive policies that would only work in some kind of peaceful utopia.

-Not voting UKIP because they don't have enough popularity to form a government.

The economy has improved on paper, but I've yet to encounter a single person who's better off. Most ordinary people have actually lost money under the Tories in one way or another. Also bear in mind what they've done to improve the figures on paper - bedroom tax, taking benefits from the disabled, etc. Don't just go on what you read on the Tory website.

How are the lib dems in "some kind of peaceful utopia?" Lib Dem councils and MPs do some great work. It's annoying how they sold themselves out to the tories but they saved us from a full tory government! 

Also you mention that you don't like how Labour no longer stands up for the workers, why are you voting tory? The only people I see them standing up for are the millionnaire bosses. 

 

But each to their own.



kowenicki said:
man-bear-pig said:


What about Northern Ireland?


What about 'em?    Give them the vote too.  3 way vote... Independence/Irish/UK

 


Northern Ireland would implode if they left the UK and if they joined the Republic there would be another civil war.