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Forums - Politics Discussion - "CIA"-style black site discovered in Chicago

bigjon said:
ofrm1 said:

Really? You're really going to go there?


So who would write this new constitution? ALL the people listed in this thread who are the problem. We can even get simple things through congress and you expect them to agree on a constitution! Bawhahaha. If there was a new constitution it would be written by the oligarchs and politicians we so dispise. 

Are you asking me who would write the new constitution or who should write it?

If the country got to a point where a new constitution was a possibility, it would not likely contain anything nefarious in it. Those same oligarchs and politicians can't even get laws like SOPA and PIPA through congress because of public criticism. Any corrupt legislation that got proposed would be noticed immediately, would be an instant scandal, and there would be rioting in the streets.

There is a common sentiment that the U.S. system is so corrupt that legislators can pass whatever draconian legislation they want. They can't. The system is made up of thousands of people, all being pressured by competing interests. There is no one business interest that rules the legislature.



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ofrm1 said:
bigjon said:


So who would write this new constitution? ALL the people listed in this thread who are the problem. We can even get simple things through congress and you expect them to agree on a constitution! Bawhahaha. If there was a new constitution it would be written by the oligarchs and politicians we so dispise. 

Are you asking me who would write the new constitution or who should write it?

If the country got to a point where a new constitution was a possibility, it would not likely contain anything nefarious in it. Those same oligarchs and politicians can't even get laws like SOPA and PIPA through congress because of public criticism. Any corrupt legislation that got proposed would be noticed immediately, would be an instant scandal, and there would be rioting in the streets.

There is a common sentiment that the U.S. system is so corrupt that legislators can pass whatever draconian legislation they want. They can't. The system is made up of thousands of people, all being pressured by competing interests. There is no one business interest that rules the legislature.

Even if a new Constitution was written, what's going to stop the same corrupt government from just passing laws that still infringe on basic liberty? It's up to the people to excite change, nothing will change if all we do is keep sending corrupt individuals to Congress and the White House and other bodies across the globe. 



NobleTeam360 said:
ofrm1 said:

Are you asking me who would write the new constitution or who should write it?

If the country got to a point where a new constitution was a possibility, it would not likely contain anything nefarious in it. Those same oligarchs and politicians can't even get laws like SOPA and PIPA through congress because of public criticism. Any corrupt legislation that got proposed would be noticed immediately, would be an instant scandal, and there would be rioting in the streets.

There is a common sentiment that the U.S. system is so corrupt that legislators can pass whatever draconian legislation they want. They can't. The system is made up of thousands of people, all being pressured by competing interests. There is no one business interest that rules the legislature.

Even if a new Constitution was written, what's going to stop the same corrupt government from just passing laws that still infringe on basic liberty? It's up to the people to excite change, nothing will change if all we do is keep sending corrupt individuals to Congress and the White House and other bodies across the globe. 

The reason government is able to pass laws that infringe upon basic liberties is because the constitution has little if anything to say on modern basic liberties. So when laws are passed and challenged in court, SCOTUS rules in favor of the laws because they can only strike down laws that are at odds with what few provisions the constitution provides. So more detailed provisions would prevent the government from casually passing laws infringing upon basic liberties, because those liberties would be protected, and thus the laws would be unconstitutional. So a more detailed constitution would keep a corrupt government from passing laws. Ideally, a more detailed and complete constitution would help prevent corruption as well.

It's also important to remember that the constitution is an example of negative rights, or "free from" rights. It has virtually nothing to say about positive rights, or "free to" rights. This is because the document was written just after a long, bloody separation from the most powerful monarchy in the world and the greatest fear that the framers had was a return to the tyranny of a king. So the principal focus was to create a system of government that would protect the citizens from a tyrannical government, rather than provide them with fundamental human rights or any of the things we expect in a contemporary society. Having fundamental human rights like life, liberty and property (which is the original line that Locke wrote. I guess providing everyone with property sounded a bit too extreme to Jefferson.) would be another advantage to calling for a new constitution.

As far as it being up to people to change, it's a nice sentiment, but it's not likely to change anything. As long as we have the current system of voting in the country, we will never have candidates that can actually deliver change. The First Past The Post voting system that we have is a single winner system, so strategic voting is a natural consequence of it, since there is strategic voting, no matter how many parties you start with, you will end up with a two-party system. Further, without effective campaign finance reform, there is no way to keep the elite from buying elections. Unfortunately there is now significant Supreme Court precedent in favor of corporate personhood dating back 40 years, so the only surefire way to get money out of politics would be a constitutional amendment. Since that requires the same amount of support that calling for a constitutional convention does, you might as well just rewrite the constitution and include that provision.



McGilliguts said:
o_O.Q said:

but this is needed to stop the terrorists!... that were and continue to be funded by the CIA...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9RCFZnWGE0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk35suofbYQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMjXbuj7BPI

but whatever this is all just crazy conspiracy stuff anyway

there's no way that it could be part of a larger plot to coerce people into dependency to the government nope not at all


The reason the cia funds terrorists is actually quite simple - they are operating under strict orders from our Muslim president with the intent to institute sharia law worldwide.

You are kidding right? He is Muslim because he is black and/or has respect for other cultures? And even if he was Muslim, that automatically means he is a terrorist? 



Oh. That kind of black site. I thought you meant the South Side.

ba dum tss



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McGilliguts said:
NobleTeam360 said:
I'm sorry defending police black sites in America (home of the supposedly free) is beyond ridiculous. Next you're going to tell me that the constitution of the United States is null and void....... oh wait we're already heading in that direction anyway. Hope everyone that didn't care about our freedom being trampled on won't be crying in the future when we live in an oppressed society.

Oh and the NDAA allows them to do this, like Benjamin Franklin said: Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


The constitution isn't really that great is it? Which liberties are essential? Every law ever written involves trading liberty for security.

 

what about bush? what about clinton? what about all of the presidents before them that all played their part to advance things to this point regrdless of whether they were democrat or republican, liberal or conservative?



McGilliguts said:
NobleTeam360 said:

Yes the country has wide spread corruption becasue the constitution is being ignored. So you're saying that everyone who runs for public office should be an atheist or agnostic? 


Yes I am saying that. Because they would make better, more rational decisions. Why should the ignorami be given the power to determine the nation's course? franky, we'd all be better off ruled by an intellectual elite that could properly prioritize scientific advancement.


stalin and pol pot were atheists and hitler in my opinion was pretty much an atheist too, he worshipped the race or in other words man

an atheistic society is going to be far more savage than one where religion is popular ( although i think religions are manipulations anyway ) imo



o_O.Q said:
McGilliguts said:


Yes I am saying that. Because they would make better, more rational decisions. Why should the ignorami be given the power to determine the nation's course? franky, we'd all be better off ruled by an intellectual elite that could properly prioritize scientific advancement.


stalin and pol pot were atheists and hitler in my opinion was pretty much an atheist too, he worshipped the race or in other words man

an atheistic society is going to be far more savage than one where religion is popular ( although i think religions are manipulations anyway ) imo

Europe, Australia, Canada and the USA are such savage places... All of them seperate religion from government. And yes, I'm aware that many people in the US are Christian and still go to church. I still wouldn't call it a religious society considering nobody is forcing you and many Christian rules aren't followed (sex before marriage, gay marriage (depending on which state you live in), etc.)

Now take a look at the majority of the Muslim countries where state and religion go hand in hand together. Not so nice places to live in.



SamuelRSmith said:
McGilliguts said:

Look maybe they had a good reason. Sliding slopes slide both ways my friend. If you ban police brutality, then pretty soon cops will be armed only with bouquets of flowers and greeting cards.


Hopefully, and then we could get rid of them entirely.

Yeah! Anarcho-syndicalist workers paradise for all!



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Samus Aran said:
o_O.Q said:


stalin and pol pot were atheists and hitler in my opinion was pretty much an atheist too, he worshipped the race or in other words man

an atheistic society is going to be far more savage than one where religion is popular ( although i think religions are manipulations anyway ) imo

Europe, Australia, Canada and the USA are such savage places... All of them seperate religion from government. And yes, I'm aware that many people in the US are Christian and still go to church. I still wouldn't call it a religious society considering nobody is forcing you and many Christian rules aren't followed (sex before marriage, gay marriage (depending on which state you live in), etc.)

Now take a look at the majority of the Muslim countries where state and religion go hand in hand together. Not so nice places to live in.


i didn't say that i think religion should be imposed on anyone, i'm just making the point that atheistic societies have a pattern of devolving into savage regimes

and i don't quite get how you can consider America to be atheistic, the other regions i can't really speak on but i don't think they are atheistic either

 

i suppose i worded my post wrong in the first place anyway i should have said "where theism is popular" because to some extent i'm beginning to consider atheism to be a religion in its own right except that instead of a supreme being separate from humans the worship is of man and his achievements as god