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Forums - Gaming Discussion - The Wii U is the only console to ever baffle me

The vast mayority of gamers don't want Zelda anymore, they could make it with the Fox Engine with Johnny Depp making mocap for Link the game wouldn't explode in popularity, Zelda is not that big of a deal anymore.

Dark Souls, Elder Scrolls and many other have surpassed the Zelda series in nearly every way possible.

Also, while the artstyle certainly helped, the main reason Twilight Princess was such a huge hit is because it was a Wii launch title, it was essentially the only game worth getting for the system for the first months, had the game came out in 2011 instead of SS it wouldn't have had the same level of success as it did.

Twilight Princess released at the right time, nothing more, nothing else.



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burninmylight said:

People got used to the Wind Waker's graphics pretty quickly - they weren't that bad. Skyward Sword though looks so generic and cartoonish, but not the good kind of cartoon (like Wind Waker). It just looked... bland.

That's why during the Skyward Sword reveal people were like "Huh?" Compared to Twilight Princess which nearly broke down the internet. I remember those days. People were so excited about TP's art style. It's what sold the game. If Skyward Sword had been released instead of it, it wouldn't have got nearly as much hype. The fact is it didn't get really any hype when it was released at all.

Once again, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE2Dc1sx71U

Then compare it to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhmcBXgnrC8 (go to the 2:20 mark)

The first video pretty much explains everybody's reaction. By the way, that video was before the Wii reveal. When a fan made Twilight Princess with Skyward Sword graphics pretty much everyone said it was terrible.

Skyward Sword's art style was very dull. It had a Saturday morning cartoon vibe to it.


I was around in 2004. I saw the damn video in 2004. People were so hyped because they were finally getting a game that looked like the Spaceworld 2001 demo. I was one of those people. I was also there to see the Skyward Sword reveal in 2010. I know how people reacted. I told you to spare me meaningless videos, but since you're so insistent on bringing them up, care to explain the 2:50 mark?

People were more hyped for Sonic: Lost World when it was revealed than they were for Super Mario 3D Land. Which is the more commercial and critically successful game?

If all you have is a couple of videos of the reactions of .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent of the gaming community, then we can end this converation. I will not repeat myself, and I prefer not to entertain fools with senseless arguments. You literally have nothing to counter with other than these old ass meaningless videos. And you could have at least been polite enough to answer my question, since I answered yours.

I normally try not to take it to this level, but:

Twilord said:
Is this trolling or just... mal-informed?

I just had to. Seriously, if all have you to try to make your point are those videos, then we need to end this right now.


Well I was obviously there too (I was even on this site), and I remember all the hype it got and its art style was the primary reason.

The sales of the Wind Waker caused Nintendo to scrap the idea for The Wind Waker 2.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/feature/13087/eiji-aonumas-gdc-2007-presentation-the-fate-of-wind-waker-2

"As some of you know, at E3 2004, we unveiled the game that would become Twilight Princess, the realistic Zelda game, and we announced that it was developed by the team that had been developing Wind Waker 2. 

[...]

I asked NOA why this was. What I was told was that the toon-shading technique was, in fact, giving the impression that this Zelda was for a younger audience and that, for this reason, it alienated the upper teen audience that had represented the typical Zelda player. Having heard that, I began to worry about whether Wind Waker 2, which used a similar presentation, was something that would actually sell.

That’s when I decided that if we didn’t have an effective and immediate solution, the only thing we could do was to give the healthy North American market the Zelda that they wanted. So, at the end of 2003, I went to Miyamoto and said, “I want to make a realistic Zelda.”

Nintendo of America was right - Twilight Princess was a smash hit of epic proportions. However, Nintendo was in extreme denial about Wind Waker's graphics: "I was still convinced the reason the Wind Waker did not perform well was because of its toon-shaded graphics style. It was something that you either loved or hated, and there was nothing that we could have done about it."

Mr. Aonuma comes up with all kinds of excuses about why The Wind Waker failed, such as it having complicated 3D gaming. However, Ocarina of Time had complicated 3D gaming and was a hit, same with Twilight Princess (and that added motion control too). TP was safe in its direction - but it was a very successful direction.

Twilight Princess had amazing fan feedback: http://www.zeldauniverse.net/features/30-minutes-with-eiji-aonuma-the-zelda-series-director-on-building-and-shipping-one-of-gamings-biggest-franchises/

"Hmm… I think the project that reflects our reaction to fan opinion is probably Twilight Princess. The incentive for us to create that different version of the Zelda universe was certainly as a result of The Wind Waker criticism that we received. Fans were saying that it wasn’t what they were looking for, it wasn’t what they were hoping for, so that’s why we went with this different graphic presentation. So I think that’s probably the one, the biggest change that we made.

I still remember eight years ago at E3 when we ran that first video of Twilight Princess. It was received very well; there was a standing ovation! So I still remember that moment very well."

I can't believe I am arguing what is a well known fact lol.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-06-14-breaking-the-link-to-the-past-zeldas-eiji-aonuma

Eiji Aonuma stated: "It was certainly a new graphical presentation – the Zelda world with its toon-shading, and also the younger, smaller Link. We heard the opinions of those Zelda fans that were somewhat critical at that time. They were saying that they didn’t want it, quite frankly."

Even though he ADMITTED fans do not want those graphics, he's still trying to push them. It shows just how lost in touch Nintendo is.

So pretty much it comes down to Nintendo KNOWS that non-realistic Zelda's sell worse, but they are in EXTREME denial about it and still trying to force it on us. We keep rejecting it: Wind Waker HD was a flop, while OOT 3D was a hit (by the way - when OOT 3D came out the 3DS was NOT popular like it is now). 

The facts are clear: The fans want a realistic Zelda. Notice Skyward Sword nor Zelda Wii U set the world on fire, but then compare it to the reactions to Twilight Princess' reveal. That's enough evidence right there. Otherwise you're in denial.



Smear-Gel said:
curl-6 said:

Smear-Gel said:

Mainstream gamers did buy millions of NSMB games

I think we really generalize mainstream gamers when talking about Zelda games. 

Different genre, different audience, not applicable.

Millions of gamers did buy Skyward Sword and WindWaker. 

I think we really generalize mainstream gamers when talking about Zelda games. 

I'm mainly saying that I don't really see the Major evidence mainstream gamers hate the cute styles. 

Cute/cartoon games are in decline virtually across the industry. Grey and brown M-rated games are the new mainstream.



McDonaldsGuy said:
EvenLuck said:
McDonaldsGuy said:

Majora's Mask wasn't a mainstream type game. It's three day cycle turned a lot of people off, also no adult link.

Do you think Twilight Princess would have been the hit it was if it had Wind Waker or Skyward Sword graphics? Be honest.


Why is it that people still seem to judge Zelda games by "the art style" instead of judging them as any other video game? 

Also, by saying "People want a realistic Zelda", it sounds like you're assuming that's what everyone would want, too, but that's not true. In fact, I believe SS and WW looks leagues better than TP. Once again, the cel-shading gives the games that timeless quality, while the gritty, "realistic" style of TP looks incredibly dated by comparison.  

The thing is, I don't take "the art style' into consideration at all when I see a new Zelda game. I go, "Oh cool, a new Zelda!" I don't care about the superficial stuff: As long as it's Zelda, I'll play it. 

To summarize this, don't judge a book by its cover. I believe people who think the art style for the new Zelda game is bad are stuck in 2002. Just...no. 

What do you prefer - the cartoon Lord of the Rings movie or the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings trilogy?

As said earlier in this thread, the Souls series and spin-offs have replaced Zelda as the premier action adventure/dungeon franchise. And the Souls series did that DESPITE being rated Mature and very difficult.

Even Nintendo admits Zelda should be realistic. That's why with all the Zelda spinoffs the Zelda characters ALWAYS have the realistic art style. Smash Bros. (all but Toon Link), Hyrule Warriors, etc. etc.

By the way Nintendo has admitted before the Wind Waker art style was detrimental to its sales, but were in extreme denial about it. Why else do you think the Wii U's Zelda tech demo was Twilight Princess style and not Skyward Sword style? Because Nintendo knows people wouldn't have cared.


First off, the Lord of the Rings thing doesn't fit here. The cartoon movie wasn't even good to begin with, and it wasn't because of its "art style".

Second off, Souls has not replaced Zelda. I don't even need to go into why, because the answer's obvious.

And once again, you're discounting people like me, who don't care about the "realism", and just wanna freaking play another Zelda game. 



KyleeStrutt said:
The vast mayority of gamers don't want Zelda anymore, they could make it with the Fox Engine with Johnny Depp making mocap for Link the game wouldn't explode in popularity, Zelda is not that big of a deal anymore.

Dark Souls, Elder Scrolls and many other have surpassed the Zelda series in nearly every way possible.

Also, while the artstyle certainly helped, the main reason Twilight Princess was such a huge hit is because it was a Wii launch title, it was essentially the only game worth getting for the system for the first months, had the game came out in 2011 instead of SS it wouldn't have had the same level of success as it did.

Twilight Princess released at the right time, nothing more, nothing else.


Twilight Princess was getting a ton of hype even before its Wii reveal.



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KyleeStrutt said:
The vast mayority of gamers don't want Zelda anymore, they could make it with the Fox Engine with Johnny Depp making mocap for Link the game wouldn't explode in popularity, Zelda is not that big of a deal anymore.

Dark Souls, Elder Scrolls and many other have surpassed the Zelda series in nearly every way possible.

Also, while the artstyle certainly helped, the main reason Twilight Princess was such a huge hit is because it was a Wii launch title, it was essentially the only game worth getting for the system for the first months, had the game came out in 2011 instead of SS it wouldn't have had the same level of success as it did.

Twilight Princess released at the right time, nothing more, nothing else.

There's so much time between Zelda releases that it can really be compared to games that could release two titles before Zelda can release a new game. It may be the reason that other, quicker to update rpgs could take its place. 



McDonaldsGuy said:

Twilight Princess was getting a ton of hype even before its Wii reveal.

Hype != Sales

Especially for 2005-2006 and being a GameCube game when the GameCube was dead and buried.



curl-6 said:
Smear-Gel said:
curl-6 said:

Smear-Gel said:

Mainstream gamers did buy millions of NSMB games

I think we really generalize mainstream gamers when talking about Zelda games. 

Different genre, different audience, not applicable.

Millions of gamers did buy Skyward Sword and WindWaker. 

I think we really generalize mainstream gamers when talking about Zelda games. 

I'm mainly saying that I don't really see the Major evidence mainstream gamers hate the cute styles. 

Cute/cartoon games are in decline virtually across the industry. Grey and brown M-rated games are the new mainstream.

What about the rise of indie games? Cute games ARE the industry. Except to the large companies that can't afford to take risks. 



curl-6 said:
EvenLuck said:

Not every non-fan thinks that, and it's not like Zelda needs to extend the fanbase anyway. I guarantee that there are millions of people who would buy the new Zelda game right now if they could. 

Modern gaming is the age of the Dudebro, who shuns anything percieved to be "kiddy". It's tragic, but that's the way things are.


Mainstream audiences don't matter when there's already millions of Zelda fans out there. Any future main Zelda game will be successful because of these fans, and any newcomers that happen to come along.

To be honest, I don't even know what I'm arguing about, and why I'm arguing in the first place. I have my beliefs, you have yours, blah blah blah. That's what it all boils down to. 



KyleeStrutt said:
McDonaldsGuy said:

Twilight Princess was getting a ton of hype even before its Wii reveal.

Hype != Sales

Especially for 2005-2006 and being a GameCube game when the GameCube was dead and buried.


Zelda TP for the GameCube actually sold very well.