By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - 5 Legal Rights Women Have That Men Don’t (primarily USA focused)

sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:

That has more to do with the idiocy of the War on Drugs than problems with parental rights' law.

Lack of visitation rights but obligation to pay is due to spouses who posed a danger of abuse to their spouse/children, and so could not "safely" be around them. Should they be rewarded for being deemed a danger by not having to pay, while more upstanding divorcees are stuck with the burden of child support?

These laws might be designed for those particular people, but they harm others as well. It's much like the death penalty in my opinion. Death penalty laws are designed for serial murders (and other people on their level) but they harm other people as well, and that is why I oppose them. I think if somebody is so dangerous that they can't see their child under supervised visits then the best bet is to remove them from your life entirely. It isn't rewarding them.

I mean, if you want those people to become a burden of the state when the missing spouse could hypothetically provide them full support. Child support is about saving children and single parents from poverty. So that is what must be weighed against the infringement of rights towards the departed spouse.

Full support usually sums up to $100 a week. It's nothing compared to the cost of raising a child. I'd rather have people be able to have more impaactful interactions with their kids than child support. I'm thinking of the people who are wronged here and how their kids development would benefit from them being in their life. That is not monetary. 

edit: More often than not these type of parents don't pay child support because they are in jail all their lives. From child support non-payment or something else. So no money is found anyway. 

So assuming you agree both parents should contribute, you think it costs in the neighbourhood of $900 a month to raise a kid (excluding all the extra curricular, day care or any other extraordinary expense that would be tacked on as additional payment over and above basic child support)? 

 

Also, my experience may be with Canadian support, but there is a very narrow range of income that would require support at that amount. And that would be when making in the neighbourhood of $40k a year. 



http://2ksports.com/go/gamerschoice/

Ok I did my part, I bought No More Heroes, but they were out of Zach and Wiki.

Ok got Zach and Wiki, now if I could just finally finish Twilight Princess so I can play all these Wii games I got waiting. And no I won't buy Okami.

DNF, now there is a game that should have been scrapped completely. Reminds me of a kid whose been in school for 12 years and still doesn't know what he wants to do. At one point you just need to man up and get a job.

Around the Network
Mr Khan said:
Jlaff said:



And women can avoid abortion by wearing a condom so... It's silly to think the condom is the responsibality of the man only, the condom is the responsability of both.

The law can easily be changed, at least just by letting the man choose to not be the father of the child, be " under X " without being forced to do anything, like they allow for women even if the woman wants him to recognize the child and pay for him. If the woman has the choice to legally not take care of her child and give him up without being guilty and called coward, a man shouuld have that choice too

Why do people think men have no choices? If the mother doesn't want the child (not meaning abortion) the father has a right to full custody or putting the kid up for adoption. If he gets custody he would also get child-support from the mother. You got be kidding yourself if you think that women who put up for adoption or abort their child aren't thought of as cowardly.


So you don't see what's wrong with what I've bolded there?

Your facile approach to this whole issue betrays your lack of ability for critical thought. In your mind, 9 months of pregnancy is of equal worth to whatever uncapped financial obligation is imposed on a father? An obligation that in some jurisdictions can extend to 22 years, and may amount to as much as millions in child support? Is the father some sort of tortfeasor in your mind that must compensate the mother by way of "damages" through support now for impregnating her? Is every woman who brings a child to term not doing so willingly in this millenium?

Unequal treatment by the state has been judicially defined as "imposing a burden or witholding a benefit" from/on one class of person and not another ("class" being sex, sexual orientation, race, marital status, etc.) see Big M Drug Mart Canadian Supreme Court. If a custodial parent is not required by the state to provide their child with progressive financial support where that amount is tied to that parent's income, but a non-custodial parent is,  you have an unequal burden and thus discrimination and unequal treatment. I won't even get into the injustice of failing to provide fathers with a "legal abortion", but clearly I would agree with those who oppose your view on that issue.

Please find me the case where a single mother making 6 figures was jailed for buying her children's clothes at Walmart or depriving them of an Xbox One AND a PS4.

This is because of the problem of deadbeat parents, post-divorce. They had to be "harder" on non-custodial parents simply because of the long history of the deadbeat dad (though i don't doubt there were more than a few deadbeat moms as well). I understand that the laws certainly look unfair, but consider this: if we loosened the guidelines for child support payments, how many people would choose to pay the bare minimum? If there was an option to find a legal way out, how many people would just take it, and then the old deadbeat parent problem comes back.


So you're advocating for discrimination based on public policy concerns, as in exactly what I suggested you were. 

So... now I'm curious what your thoughts are on stop and frisk laws. 

Also, any thought given to what pool of funds cost incurred by a non-custodial should come out of? Like those costs for food, clothing, entertainment, having an additional bedroom that are given no consideration under support tables unless that time exceeds 40 percent of the days in a year? 



http://2ksports.com/go/gamerschoice/

Ok I did my part, I bought No More Heroes, but they were out of Zach and Wiki.

Ok got Zach and Wiki, now if I could just finally finish Twilight Princess so I can play all these Wii games I got waiting. And no I won't buy Okami.

DNF, now there is a game that should have been scrapped completely. Reminds me of a kid whose been in school for 12 years and still doesn't know what he wants to do. At one point you just need to man up and get a job.

Right to keep their breasts hidden on broadcast TV. Men's breasts are able to be showed whenever they want, but for some reason the United States frowns when women show their breasts. Are men and women really equal?



Jlaff said:
Mr Khan said:

This is because of the problem of deadbeat parents, post-divorce. They had to be "harder" on non-custodial parents simply because of the long history of the deadbeat dad (though i don't doubt there were more than a few deadbeat moms as well). I understand that the laws certainly look unfair, but consider this: if we loosened the guidelines for child support payments, how many people would choose to pay the bare minimum? If there was an option to find a legal way out, how many people would just take it, and then the old deadbeat parent problem comes back.


So you're advocating for discrimination based on public policy concerns, as in exactly what I suggested you were. 

So... now I'm curious what your thoughts are on stop and frisk laws. 

Also, any thought given to what pool of funds cost incurred by a non-custodial should come out of? Like those costs for food, clothing, entertainment, having an additional bedroom that are given no consideration under support tables unless that time exceeds 40 percent of the days in a year? 

The two are related, but not in the way that you suggest. Stop and Frisk was wrong because it discriminated against people without any actual suspicion that they had done something wrong. The regime of child support payments is wrong only in that it is a one-size-fits-all approach to a problem which is more nuanced, but is superior to the alternative of the legal right-of-surrender, because of how damaging poverty is to a child's development, and the likelihood that single-parenthood is to contribute to poverty.

It is an imperfect system, but not an unjust one, per se.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Making non-custodial parents pay all, or in the majority of cases (in my view, I'm not going to cite studies on the actual cost of raising a child, and they all vary widely) far more than the cost of raising a child from the outset is assuming they won't meet the needs of the child without state coercion. I'm not being sarcastic when I say this, but really in this day the thought a non-custodial parent might be capable and willing to meet the needs of their children without being told/forced to by the state is not in anyone's contemplation. There is an almost society wide assumption that they won't, without giving them any chance to do so. Exactly the same assumed guilt you acknowledge with stop and frisk. Only in the case of racial discrimination most people can't stomach that, but unjustified, outright transfers of wealth from men to women with children is not something that will attract protests. You can suggest a custodial parent may not petition the state for support if it is being made (and I'm sure this happens), but you underestimate the greed of some who see the potential personal gain for themselves that can be realized by enforcing child support laws even if the needs of the child are being met without state intervention. When laws allow for this sort of unilateral choice for exploitation of another they are unjust. 



http://2ksports.com/go/gamerschoice/

Ok I did my part, I bought No More Heroes, but they were out of Zach and Wiki.

Ok got Zach and Wiki, now if I could just finally finish Twilight Princess so I can play all these Wii games I got waiting. And no I won't buy Okami.

DNF, now there is a game that should have been scrapped completely. Reminds me of a kid whose been in school for 12 years and still doesn't know what he wants to do. At one point you just need to man up and get a job.

Around the Network
Jlaff said:

Making non-custodial parents pay all, or in the majority of cases (in my view, I'm not going to cite studies on the actual cost of raising a child, and they all vary widely) far more than the cost of raising a child from the outset is assuming they won't meet the needs of the child without state coercion. I'm not being sarcastic when I say this, but really in this day the thought a non-custodial parent might be capable and willing to meet the needs of their children without being told/forced to by the state is not in anyone's contemplation. There is an almost society wide assumption that they won't, without giving them any chance to do so. Exactly the same assumed guilt you acknowledge with stop and frisk. Only in the case of racial discrimination most people can't stomach that, but unjustified, outright transfers of wealth from men to women with children is not something that will attract protests. You can suggest a custodial parent may not petition the state for support if it is being made (and I'm sure this happens), but you underestimate the greed of some who see the potential personal gain for themselves that can be realized by enforcing child support laws even if the needs of the child are being mey without state intervention. When laws allow for this sort of unilateral choice for exploitation of another they are unjust. 

But when we talk about exploitation, if we define it in terms of "needs of the child," then couldn't a non-custodial parent sue to try and declare that the needs of a child are being met even when they're actually not?

We can agree that the system needs to be refined, but how many cases of abuse are there, in fact? It is one thing to say they exist, it is another to quanitfy them, much like the spurious arguments behind voter ID laws.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

I know in Canada that needs are defined by income, and in my experience the child support amounts are even higher in the US. So if for instance you had two parents each making $100k, and they were meeting the needs of the child with $800 a month between them (excluding day care, sports, etc) but the obligation of the non-custodial parent was about $950 according to the tables (before day care, sports, etc.), they would not be able to get around that in any way by suggesting the needs were already met. The custodial parent can have the support enforced at $950, continue meeting the child's needs at $800, save the $150 over and above plus extinguish any financial responsibility for themselves (the previous $400 they were contributing for a net gain of $550 a month). Remember decisions are being made in the context of divorce or separation, so I'll leave you to decide whether these are generally amicable situations.



http://2ksports.com/go/gamerschoice/

Ok I did my part, I bought No More Heroes, but they were out of Zach and Wiki.

Ok got Zach and Wiki, now if I could just finally finish Twilight Princess so I can play all these Wii games I got waiting. And no I won't buy Okami.

DNF, now there is a game that should have been scrapped completely. Reminds me of a kid whose been in school for 12 years and still doesn't know what he wants to do. At one point you just need to man up and get a job.

Jlaff said:

I know in Canada that needs are defined by income, and in my experience the child support amounts are even higher in the US. So if for instance you had two parents each making $100k, and they were meeting the needs of the child with $800 a month between them (excluding day care, sports, etc) but the obligation of the non-custodial parent was about $950 according to the tables (before day care, sports, etc.), they would not be able to get around that in any way by suggesting the needs were already met. The custodial parent can have the support enforced at $950, continue meeting the child's needs at $800, save the $150 over and above plus extinguish any financial responsibility for themselves (the previous $400 they were contributing for a net gain of $550 a month). Remember decisions are being made in the context of divorce or separation, so I'll leave you to decide whether these are generally amicable situations.

I'm talking about a hypothetical reform. What would you like to see happen with child-support policies?



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Things like what you've mentioned, if you can show needs can be met outside guideline amounts, a court should be willing to allow those amounts. An acknowledgement in the legislation that custodial parents are held to the same support standard as the non-custodial (even if simply stating it won't make a difference). A hard cap on support payments that will never be exceeded outside extraordinary circumstances.

As for any sort of table that would exist, the amounts should be focused on actual costs. On a somewhat funny side note, the local enforcement agency had listed the costs for raising a child on their website in the hopes of compelling payor parents to keep up with the payments. The final amount was either $380 or $480/month or something in that area. They ended up pulling it down quite quickly, as many parents complained they paid more than this per month themselves, and secondly, the implication was that the agency completely forgot about any sort of obligation for the custodial parent to contribute to these costs and portrayed the entire obligation as that of the non-custodial parent (was a bit of an embarrasment).

Would also like to see a debit card system that the support be drawn from over a certain amount. Do not allow cash withdrawals, and give either the paying parent or an oversight agency access to the monthly debits as a basis for any possible complaints on whether the money is supporting the children. Just some ideas off the top of my head, what would yours be?



http://2ksports.com/go/gamerschoice/

Ok I did my part, I bought No More Heroes, but they were out of Zach and Wiki.

Ok got Zach and Wiki, now if I could just finally finish Twilight Princess so I can play all these Wii games I got waiting. And no I won't buy Okami.

DNF, now there is a game that should have been scrapped completely. Reminds me of a kid whose been in school for 12 years and still doesn't know what he wants to do. At one point you just need to man up and get a job.

Do people not think raising a child is also part of the cost? A non-custodial parent is less physically responsible for their children. That has value and is the reason we pay nannies and baby-sitters. Time is money is a saying for a reason. I am sorry but both parents paying an equal share does not sound fair and equal in the least bit.