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Forums - Politics Discussion - 5 Legal Rights Women Have That Men Don’t (primarily USA focused)

Nicklesbe said:
I'm sorry but this is a load of crap. None of these are actually true. Woman have been added to the draft since they were allowed to be full members of the military. There is not really an exact equivalent to male circumcision for woman, men have it removed because it's a useless flap of skin that can cause the build up of bacteria and cause infection. Unless you are talking about the Muslim world where they cut off the entire clitoris which would be exactly the same as removing the entire tip of the penis from the shaft so that is rightfully considered monstrous. The closest thing to male circumcision would be that some woman are born with enlarged clitorises and some parents at birth just like with males have an option to have it reduced in size(but not entirely removed) which is a more complex operation. Or they can wait until they are an adult. Hell tons of woman have cosmetic surgery on their vagina's all the time and not only is not not considered monstrous, it's encouraged and is a billion dollar industry in California alone.

Men have just as much right and control over the life of a child as the woman. Granted the man can't exactly choose to have the child terminated early in birth because it is the woman's body, and the fetus is nothing more than a body part until it forms into a human. After birth however both parents have equal rights, at least here in Ohio and most places in the US. May be different some places in the south but for the most part its based on if both are legal age and finances and not gender. Take my cousin for example he just just turned 18 and his girlfriend was just about to turn 17 and got pregnant when they were both minors . His family was also considerably richer and when it came time to decide custody they did not even ask the mother, he got custody by default. There are also tons of examples of adult couples where men get custody and deciding power because the mother is deemed unfit. There are tons of examples of mothers abandoning the family/children and being forced to pay support and there are countless examples of father abandoning their family with absolutely no legal recourse taken against them. So that's complete bullshit. Much like the right to "rape" the fact that 2 mil men reported they were raped proves that men have just as much right to claim rape as woman. The only thing that statistic proves is that woman are raped a huge amount more which is accurate. This is some hilariously bad propaganda and general bullshit.


Except you're wrong about pretty much everything.  Even the part where the OP agrees with you, somewhat you're wrong.

"Useless flap of skin" is simply wrong. You would know that if you had ever done any sort of real research of actual reliable sources on the topic. I wont be arguing that circumcision is bad, but it's by no means something that only gets rid of something "useless" and is only positive as you're clearly stating is your opinion. Get informed better and stop telling everyone who tells you you're wrong that they are idiots.



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Sadly, some very good points that I agree with, except perhaps #5.

I myself was very angry about "having" to sign up for "Selective Service", just to get aid or college, to be able to vote, etc. But it isn't even that, it isn't like if you DON'T care about those things, you don't have to do it. Nope, getting a letter in the mail when you turn 18, that says "Do it or you could face 5 years in prison and/or be fined $250,000", that's pretty fucking unnerving. And also absolutely against the idea of a "Free nation".



DJEVOLVE said:
Lawlight said:
DJEVOLVE said:


You said the guy should have equal rights on the issue, NO HE SHOULDN'T. I don't know how I have to say this for you to understand.

Are you out of your mind? So, men should have no right over their child?


So you think just because you squirted a little goo into a woman, you now have complete control of her body and what she does with it?

It's her body, You gave away your goo, meaning, it is no longer yours. 

Let's not forget, maybe your genetics is not up to par for her desire, then shouldn't she be able to flush this out and start new?

The zygote in here body has everything to do with her decisions, it lives off of her, that zygote needs her body, not yours. You only provided the seed.

Meaning no matter how much I don't like it or you, IT IS UP TO HER. It's her body that provides the safe haven and if she does not want to provide that safe haven, it's up to her.

Rather you should think why she doesn't want to continue your genetic coding furthing into this world. Also you should ponder why you think you have the control? You don't and shouldn't.

Her body is the final answer, meaning what this zygote does or doesn't do with her body is completely up to her control.  Why would you think different? 

should we be mad about what happens to the sanitary napkin that is flushed after those wonderful moments  of self gradification? NO, so get off your hi horse.


That's some of the biggest, most ridiculous strawmanning I have seen in the past weeks (and I do take part in many discussions on different topics).

The discussion has been from the beggining about parental rights AFTER BIRTH. There's no one arguing that there are equal decision rights on the woman's body or her fetus pre birth.

I believe you were the first person to bring it up and then decided to attack that position that I have failed to see anyone else hold.

The conversation is about equal rights after birth and mostly about the chance for a man to abstain from being a father or have the same rights over the child post birth as the woman does. Again before you decide to keep the straw man going.

PRE BIRTH - the woman has 100% rights over the child in my view.

POST BIRTH - both have equal rights over the child. 50-50.

 

end of rant



setsunatenshi said:The discussion has been from the beggining about parental rights AFTER BIRTH. There's no one arguing that there are equal decision rights on the woman's body or her fetus pre birth.

I believe you were the first person to bring it up and then decided to attack that position that I have failed to see anyone else hold.

The conversation is about equal rights after birth and mostly about the chance for a man to abstain from being a father or have the same rights over the child post birth as the woman does. Again before you decide to keep the straw man going.

PRE BIRTH - the woman has 100% rights over the child in my view.

POST BIRTH - both have equal rights over the child. 50-50.


The op brought up abortion as one of the ways in which women can absolve responsibility and men can't.  No one is saying men and women shouldn't have equal rights after birth either. Has anyone stated men shouldn't have custody or visitation? That women shouldn't pay for their child? Or that women can walk away after birth and men can't?

This whole argument is based on the "extra rights" women have that deal with their own bodies. Please tell me how a man can absolve himself in the same way if he can't be pregnant? Tell me a fair way  in which a man can absolve his reponsibility. 



pepharytheworm said:
setsunatenshi said:The discussion has been from the beggining about parental rights AFTER BIRTH. There's no one arguing that there are equal decision rights on the woman's body or her fetus pre birth.

I believe you were the first person to bring it up and then decided to attack that position that I have failed to see anyone else hold.

The conversation is about equal rights after birth and mostly about the chance for a man to abstain from being a father or have the same rights over the child post birth as the woman does. Again before you decide to keep the straw man going.

PRE BIRTH - the woman has 100% rights over the child in my view.

POST BIRTH - both have equal rights over the child. 50-50.


The op brought up abortion as one of the ways in which women can absolve responsibility and men can't.  No one is saying men and women shouldn't have equal rights after birth either. Has anyone stated men shouldn't have custody or visitation? That women shouldn't pay for their child? Or that women can walk away after birth and men can't?

This whole argument is based on the "extra rights" women have that deal with their own bodies. Please tell me how a man can absolve himself in the same way if he can't be pregnant? Tell me a fair way  in which a man can absolve his reponsibility. 


Btw to correct you just because a woman is pregnant for 9 months doesn't mean that she can get an abortion at any stage. I believe it's illegal to get one after 24 weeks.



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I hate that some laws protect woman too much, I remember one day when I was 14, one girl was punching a dude and the girl said "what are going to do hit me? Or call the police and tell them that I start this, I can tell them that you hit me first and they will believe" that stuff makes me anger same with number 3 they want the custody but they sometime cannot support the child right.



Lawlight said:
pepharytheworm said:
setsunatenshi said:The discussion has been from the beggining about parental rights AFTER BIRTH. There's no one arguing that there are equal decision rights on the woman's body or her fetus pre birth.

I believe you were the first person to bring it up and then decided to attack that position that I have failed to see anyone else hold.

The conversation is about equal rights after birth and mostly about the chance for a man to abstain from being a father or have the same rights over the child post birth as the woman does. Again before you decide to keep the straw man going.

PRE BIRTH - the woman has 100% rights over the child in my view.

POST BIRTH - both have equal rights over the child. 50-50.


The op brought up abortion as one of the ways in which women can absolve responsibility and men can't.  No one is saying men and women shouldn't have equal rights after birth either. Has anyone stated men shouldn't have custody or visitation? That women shouldn't pay for their child? Or that women can walk away after birth and men can't?

This whole argument is based on the "extra rights" women have that deal with their own bodies. Please tell me how a man can absolve himself in the same way if he can't be pregnant? Tell me a fair way  in which a man can absolve his reponsibility. 


Btw to correct you just because a woman is pregnant for 9 months doesn't mean that she can get an abortion at any stage. I believe it's illegal to get one after 24 weeks.

How are you correcting me? When did I mention women can get an abortion at any stage?



pepharytheworm said:

How are you correcting me? When did I mention women can get an abortion at any stage?

You did say that the first 9 months is not part of the man's responsibility.



Lawlight said:
pepharytheworm said:

How are you correcting me? When did I mention women can get an abortion at any stage?

You did say that the first 9 months is not part of the man's responsibility.

 I was talking about men can't be pregnant and all the physical ordeals related to that, that was the responsibility I was speaking of. The man is just as financially liable during pregnancy and after as the woman. You weren't following the entire conversation I was having and you didn't even quote the relevant post. And that still doesn't explain how you thought that I was implying women could abort anytime during pregnancy.



pepharytheworm said:


Alright prove what you say is true and not what others think you are saying. Come up with a fairer law that has a control so as men can't simply walk out. If you say good morals are all that's needed don't even bother replying. 

I agree any father who pays support and is not unhealthy to be around for the child should be able to have visitation rights. Your assumptions of DJEVOLVE and I are way off base. We have not once mentioned that the first 9 months are all there is to being a parent. Only that that is something at this time is not part of the males responsibility and as such the laws reflect that.


Maybe I misunderstood your claims, if so, I apologise.

I'm not usually one to "propose laws", but if you insist:

1) Let men absolve responsibilities if within a certain time frame, that time frame being less than the woman is allowed to abort within the jurisdiction. ie - If a woman is allowed to abort within first 20 weeks, men have right to absolve within first 12 weeks. Same restrictions apply as abortion, so if a woman needs to go through some kind of spiel as to why abortions are bad (as they do in some states, I believe) a man must do the same, and he can't say he's absolved, there needs to be some kind of legal document signed with the mother being informed prior to the granting of the document.

This way, men can absolve, but there are hoops to jump through, and there's time afterwards to allow the mother to decide whether she wants to raise the baby without the father.

2) In cases of divorce or separation, the primary care giver should not be defaulted to either parent. If the children are old enough to decide, it should be their choice, secondly if one parent forgoes the primary caregiver role, the role goes to the other parent. Beyond those, it's a court case.

3) The primary caregiver should not be allowed to restrict access to secondary caregiver. Moreover, under a certain age, the secondary caregiver should have an obligation to see the children a certain number of days per month, refusal to do so will incur a higher financial burden on providing child support to primary caregiver.

4) If it is determined that the primary caregiver is abusing child support money, then the secondary caregiver should be allowed to place restrictions on the money, a bit like food stamps, where the money can only be spent on items like food, children's clothing, and education.

Obviously, these laws apply to "normal cases", and will not handle situations like violent partners, underraged parents, issues like non-biological parents, etc.

These laws would be far from perfect, but certainly much "fairer" than the current setup.