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Forums - Sony Discussion - What do yo think will be the hardware specifications of PS5 if it arrives arround 2019-2020?

Pemalite said:
Trumpstyle said:

A 4 core cpu would just not be good enough for next-gen system especially with 1 core being taken by the OS. If you wondering why exactly 7 cores instead of 8 cores it's cause it will be cheaper to produce with 1 core disabled.

Quad core CPU's have taken the role of the old dual-cores in terms of performance.
I.E. AMD's Ryzen's low-end are Quad-Cores.
Intels i3 is now Quad-Cores.

So it goes without saying... Regardless of the amount of cores that is chosen (8-Jaguar cores were roughly comparable to an Intel i3 Dual Core), having CPU performance around that level is probably something we might expect.

globalisateur said:

SMT (2 threads by core) is not ideal for a console, apparently it's kind of random. I think it would make much more sense (and be less expensive anyways) for 8 cores, 8 threads. Also BC with PS4 would be much easier like this.

The Xbox 360 had SMT, but it did bring with it some caveats that I won't get into here.

In short though, SMT would not prevent backwards compatibility, but when leveraged right can allow you to extract more performance out of each core.

globalisateur said:

AMD produce their CPU by chunk of 4. So it would be 6 cores (with 2 disabled) or 8.

Not even a factor when we start talking about monolithic semi-custom SoC's.

Intrinsic said:

STORAGE: I believe the PS5 (and next Xbox) will finally jump to solid state drives. And of the M.2 variety. While the consoles will support PCIEx4 based nvMe drives by default (~2000Mb/s + reads) the consoles will come with a 1TB sata 3 based m.2 drive instead (~500Mb/s reads). Right now you can get a 512GB M.2 sata ssd for under $150.

Thats not what it would cost for sony and those prices will come down in the next 2/3yrs. Drives will be user upgradeable of course.

They will go with whatever is cheapest. - Even the Xbox One X isn't using the biggest, fastest mechanical disks and that was a "premium" console.

SSD's/m.2 drives still command a premium and will do so even in a few years from now.
Plus the demand for NAND is increasing, so costs could actually increase, especially if NAND fabs retool to start taking advantage of higher DRAM prices.

withdreday said:

They almost have to with the PS4 Pro being so under powered compared to the Xbox One X. The One X is even out selling the Pro now, so most current owners don't even see the upgrade as being worth it. I tend to believe most of the rumors that the PS4 Pro will become the baseline PS4 and drop $299 the PS5 will be the "premium" console.

The Xbox One X outselling the Pro is an inconsequential issue as the Pro isn't the bulk of Playstation sales anyway.

withdreday said:

As far as Ram, Maybe 16 Gigs of DDR5? Remember this thing has to be able to be priced at Sony's ideal price point of $399. I can't imagine that they want another PS3...

DDR5 isn't going to happen. JEDEC has only just finished demonstrating the DRAM and hasn't even finished ratifying the standard... And is thus probably still a few years away from a market release.
It does promise to double the bandwidth and density of DDR4, which means it's not going to be enough for next gen anyway unless you implement a stupidly wide bus.

It will be GDDR6, it will be what will offer the greatest benefits, higher capacities and good enough bandwidth/latency.
GDDR6 is currently ramping up production right now, so costs will be leveled out by the time 2020 hits.
 

 

But it proves that most PS4 owners don't deem it worth it to fork over 400 bucks to upgrade. New owners are still going with the base model. The Pro, unless it sees a price drop to $349 or even $299, sales will stay stagnant compared to the more powerful One X.

And didn't even know about GDDR6. In that case, I can't wait. As I stated though, don't expect to even hear about a PS5 until the PS4 hits 100 million which is easily doable at the end of this holiday season.

Remember when people said the no console would ever sell 100m again because of stupid mobile phones and tablets (which turned out to just be just a huge fad btw)? Aah, those were the days...



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withdreday said:
Pemalite said:

Quad core CPU's have taken the role of the old dual-cores in terms of performance.
I.E. AMD's Ryzen's low-end are Quad-Cores.
Intels i3 is now Quad-Cores.

So it goes without saying... Regardless of the amount of cores that is chosen (8-Jaguar cores were roughly comparable to an Intel i3 Dual Core), having CPU performance around that level is probably something we might expect.

The Xbox 360 had SMT, but it did bring with it some caveats that I won't get into here.

In short though, SMT would not prevent backwards compatibility, but when leveraged right can allow you to extract more performance out of each core.

Not even a factor when we start talking about monolithic semi-custom SoC's.

They will go with whatever is cheapest. - Even the Xbox One X isn't using the biggest, fastest mechanical disks and that was a "premium" console.

SSD's/m.2 drives still command a premium and will do so even in a few years from now.
Plus the demand for NAND is increasing, so costs could actually increase, especially if NAND fabs retool to start taking advantage of higher DRAM prices.

The Xbox One X outselling the Pro is an inconsequential issue as the Pro isn't the bulk of Playstation sales anyway.

DDR5 isn't going to happen. JEDEC has only just finished demonstrating the DRAM and hasn't even finished ratifying the standard... And is thus probably still a few years away from a market release.
It does promise to double the bandwidth and density of DDR4, which means it's not going to be enough for next gen anyway unless you implement a stupidly wide bus.

It will be GDDR6, it will be what will offer the greatest benefits, higher capacities and good enough bandwidth/latency.
GDDR6 is currently ramping up production right now, so costs will be leveled out by the time 2020 hits.
 

 

But it proves that most PS4 owners don't deem it worth it to fork over 400 bucks to upgrade. New owners are still going with the base model. The Pro, unless it sees a price drop to $349 or even $299, sales will stay stagnant compared to the more powerful One X.

 

The Pro has been selling for 349,- for months now. And looking at Amazon it is indeed outselling the X1X at the moment. I can assure you during 2018 the amount of PS4Pros will rise far above the 5:1 ratio it had last year. 



Bofferbrauer2 said:

While the DDR5 standard is supposed to be published this year, don't count on it for the next console. DDR5 is late, it was supposed to get finalised in 2016 already, with market release in 2020. In other words, they are 2 years late on that plan already, and from final specs to the released product there are always a couple of years ( due to how lithography works, that can't be shortened by more than a few months if they're lucky). Plus, any new standard is much more expensive than the established one, making them more unsuitable for consoles.

Finally, GDDR gets developed from DDR, and a GDDR standard deriving from DRR5 will not come before DDR5 is released because GDDR is basically DDR modified for high bandwith. Just have a look how long it took for GDDR6 to be developed from DDR4. While there can be an improved GDDR7 in the next years, that one would still be derived from DDR4, not 5 (just as GDDR2 and 3 are derived from DDR2 and GDDR4 and 5 are derived from DDR3)

In short, don't count on DDR5 before 2021 earliest and any GDDR derived from it for about 2023, and pricely viable for a console not before 2025.

Actually GDDR6 is going to release with hardware before DDR5 does ... (JEDEC also never intended for the final spec to release in 2016 either so there was no delay and we don't know if future GDDRX technologies will be derived from DDR again as JEDEC never mentioned similarities between GDDR6/DDR4) 

If a memory standard becomes available then you can bet you'll see it in products next year after that ... 



fatslob-:O said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

While the DDR5 standard is supposed to be published this year, don't count on it for the next console. DDR5 is late, it was supposed to get finalised in 2016 already, with market release in 2020. In other words, they are 2 years late on that plan already, and from final specs to the released product there are always a couple of years ( due to how lithography works, that can't be shortened by more than a few months if they're lucky). Plus, any new standard is much more expensive than the established one, making them more unsuitable for consoles.

Finally, GDDR gets developed from DDR, and a GDDR standard deriving from DRR5 will not come before DDR5 is released because GDDR is basically DDR modified for high bandwith. Just have a look how long it took for GDDR6 to be developed from DDR4. While there can be an improved GDDR7 in the next years, that one would still be derived from DDR4, not 5 (just as GDDR2 and 3 are derived from DDR2 and GDDR4 and 5 are derived from DDR3)

In short, don't count on DDR5 before 2021 earliest and any GDDR derived from it for about 2023, and pricely viable for a console not before 2025.

Actually GDDR6 is going to release with hardware before DDR5 does ... (JEDEC also never intended for the final spec to release in 2016 either so there was no delay and we don't know if future GDDRX technologies will be derived from DDR again as JEDEC never mentioned similarities between GDDR6/DDR4) 

If a memory standard becomes available then you can bet you'll see it in products next year after that ... 

I don't know if you understand german, but hey: https://www.golem.de/news/arbeitsspeicher-ddr5-naehert-sich-langsam-der-marktreife-1608-122737.html In the last paragraph they are talking about that JEDEC supposed to finalize DDR5 before the end of that year, so yes there is a 2 year delay. Availability was only expected for 2020, so if the same delay applies then commercial availability would not be before 2022.

Of course GDDR6 releases before DDR5. After all, GDDR6 is based upon DDR4, not DDR5. Any GDDR version that would be derived from DDR5 will not come out before 2023.



Bofferbrauer2 said:

I don't know if you understand german, but hey: https://www.golem.de/news/arbeitsspeicher-ddr5-naehert-sich-langsam-der-marktreife-1608-122737.html In the last paragraph they are talking about that JEDEC supposed to finalize DDR5 before the end of that year, so yes there is a 2 year delay. Availability was only expected for 2020, so if the same delay applies then commercial availability would not be before 2022.

Of course GDDR6 releases before DDR5. After all, GDDR6 is based upon DDR4, not DDR5. Any GDDR version that would be derived from DDR5 will not come out before 2023.

Are there any other sites reporting this ? Just because they would "like" to doesn't mean that they have "confirmed" or "anoounced" the finalization of the spec by the end of 2016 ... 



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BraLoD said:
konnichiwa said:

Well people were talking about PS4 in 2011 and day by day it is basically only 2 years from now that they announce ps5 if it is a similar generation.

Maybe late 2012 because of the Wii U, but 2011? I honestly don't remember it.

I am so lazy to sum it all up.

Anyway 2011 had some articles popping up, the most credible one was about a potential PS4 plan that got leaked and that sony was looking into the possibility of a 2012 Q4 releases + having discussions about Potential PS4 production Facilities.

In 2012 the floodgates went open, and is btw a popular game trivia question. What was the project name for PS4?...dum dum dum.....Orbis!!!  That project name got leaked early 2012.






Intrinsic said:

I don't get why people are throwing around HBM like its the holy grail of memory. And in the process underselling GDDR6. The fastest GDDR6 ram (aka as highest capacity) will have 24GB and a bandwidth of 864GB/s. In comparison the next best thing on the HBM front will have a bandwidth of around 901GB/s. We are talking about a bandwidth difference of less than 50GB/s. And a price difference of more than 50% and thats not factoring in the significantly lower yeilds. 

I think we need to stop looking at the tech and more at the performance when it comes to this.... anything higher than 500GB/s bandwidth will be more than sufficient for 4k gaming.  There is also that possibility that console makers can even go with a custom "extra wide bus" which would result in even more bandwidth from their chosen ram.

In terms of memory bandwidth, it's absolutely top notch and I don't wish for 4K, I wish for physically based dynamic global illumination ... (BW might become a severe bottleneck when doing ray traversal in ray tracing so I want this mitigated as soon as possible for next generation) 

Also the difference is much larger than 50 GB/s. The fastest HBM 2 memory module can let us achieve rates as high as 1.25 TB/s on a 4096-bit bus width while the maximum a GDDR6 standard memory module can achieve on a 512-bit bus width will net 1 TB/s. GDDR6 has a massive 20% BW deficit compared to the fastest HBM 2 memory module ... 



exclusive_console said:

X is not selling because of exclusives. Switch is a great example, though it is a hybrid and that could be the reason for high sales I think exclusive games is an important factor. I guess people will buy 500$ console if it has the games and obviously BC for PS4.

If native 4K is too demanding then IMO it will not be bad idea to keep using checkerboard 4K but we get huge upgrade in shadow, lighting, special affects, stuff on screen at 60fps. I am a 1080P user but honestly I think gfx is more important than native 4K. Having said that I think native 4K will be given the priority because of marketing purpose.

I have a theory on this too. I think checkerboard rendering is here to stay as far as PS consoles go. The techs implementation will be improved significantly, and more fully hardware backed but i really believe its here to stay.

Rayban99 said:

an 11 tflop 1080ti costs over $1000 right now and the prices are going up.

Don;t be fooled by that and stop looking at what 11TF costs on PC. Instead look at what TF costs on console. A 6TF GPU fits into an APU in a $500 console today. Thats APU (CPU+GPU), UHD drive, HDD, PSU, Cooler and controller.... all for half what a 11TF GPU (alone) on PC  costs today. Does that seem proportionate to you?

PC hardware prices are skyrocketing cause the PC manufacturers realize that PC gamers are willing to spend increasingly larger amounts of money for the hardware. Its almost like they are doing this thing where the more ridiculously priced something is the better.

Having said that, on a 7nm fab process... that same hardware in the XB1X will go up from 6TF to 12TF by simply doubling the amount of compute units in the GPU. Which should be the easiest thing to do without even doing too much chip redesigning. Thats just to point out that 12TF is really the minimum you can expect from the next gen consoles. 

Now if they split the cpu and GPU..... thats a totally different matter. And a very different discussion.

fatslob-:O said:

In terms of memory bandwidth, it's absolutely top notch and I don't wish for 4K, I wish for physically based dynamic global illumination ... (BW might become a severe bottleneck when doing ray traversal in ray tracing so I want this mitigated as soon as possible for next generation) 

Also the difference is much larger than 50 GB/s. The fastest HBM 2 memory module can let us achieve rates as high as 1.25 TB/s on a 4096-bit bus width while the maximum a GDDR6 standard memory module can achieve on a 512-bit bus width will net 1 TB/s. GDDR6 has a massive 20% BW deficit compared to the fastest HBM 2 memory module ... 

No....

16GB of GDDR6 with 256-bit bus = 576GB/s.

24GB of GDDR6 with 384-bit bus = 864GB/s 

I can't say anything about what GDDR6 on a 512-bit bus would reach but instead I ask this. At 864GB/s we are looking at bandwidth more than 4 times whats in the PS4 today. You really think we need that much bandwidth in a console to push 4k games? I doubt. HBM would be great... but its just not necessary.



fatslob-:O said:

That may have used to be true in the past but now I'm not so sure anymore since there's nothing stopping their recent momentum. (industry on the verge of transitioning to EUV, Rambus reuniting with JEDEC(!) and higher demand than ever for higher performance DRAM) Before memory standards used to have a much lower turnover rate but currently their bringing out new memory standards faster than they did in the past. GDDR3 standard wasn't developed by JEDEC since they adopted it from ATi Technologies at the time, the specifications for the GDDR4 standard was released in 2006 by JEDEC, GDDR5 standard was released in 2007, GDDR5X standard was released in 2016 and the GDDR6 standard released a year after that. Consequently the original HBM standard was adopted in 2013, HBM 2 standard was finalized in 2016 but HBM 3 standard could get finalized by as early as the end of this year ... 

The final DDR5 standard is about to be published this year too ... 

Well. GDDR5X protocol and interface training sequence are similar to those of the GDDR5, but adopts the 16n prefetch that GDDR6 is adopting.
We could say it is an extension of GDDR5 rather than something new, the name of the DRAM backs that up.

It mostly existed because GDDR6 was so late to the table, we needed an interim solution.

I'm just going to take a wait-and-see approach on GDDR7, if we get it before 2020 then great.

Errorist76 said:

That’s highly unrealistic to assume, just for the fact the new CPU will be much faster for sure. GPU will also be at least Vega based. The X1X doesn’t even use Vega features - the Pro does though.

It will use AMD's next gen GPU architecture and not Vega which is a GPU architecture that released in 2017.

And I highly doubt they will even choose Navi, but it really depends how long AMD flogs that horse.

withdreday said:

 

But it proves that most PS4 owners don't deem it worth it to fork over 400 bucks to upgrade. New owners are still going with the base model. The Pro, unless it sees a price drop to $349 or even $299, sales will stay stagnant compared to the more powerful One X.

The Pro isn't really offering a new experience.

withdreday said:

And didn't even know about GDDR6. In that case, I can't wait. As I stated though, don't expect to even hear about a PS5 until the PS4 hits 100 million which is easily doable at the end of this holiday season.

Once the Playstation 4 hits market saturation and sales rate declines... Then Sony's incentive to release it's next-gen platform increases.
Microsoft and Nintendo also apply some additional competitive pressure.

Throwing out arbitrary numbers/claims like: "New PS5 when PS4 hits 100 mill sold" isn't really something I can adhere to.

withdreday said:

Remember when people said the no console would ever sell 100m again because of stupid mobile phones and tablets (which turned out to just be just a huge fad btw)? Aah, those were the days...

I wasn't one of those people.

fatslob-:O said:

In terms of memory bandwidth, it's absolutely top notch and I don't wish for 4K, I wish for physically based dynamic global illumination ... (BW might become a severe bottleneck when doing ray traversal in ray tracing so I want this mitigated as soon as possible for next generation) 

Also the difference is much larger than 50 GB/s. The fastest HBM 2 memory module can let us achieve rates as high as 1.25 TB/s on a 4096-bit bus width while the maximum a GDDR6 standard memory module can achieve on a 512-bit bus width will net 1 TB/s. GDDR6 has a massive 20% BW deficit compared to the fastest HBM 2 memory module ... 

GDDR6 is cheaper though for it's given capacity, which is why it will be leveraged for next-gen.
Unless GDDR7 is ramped up before then, but I have my doubts.

With that in mind... If AMD drives home the memory controller, I am sure they could push the bandwidth, AMD and nVidia pushed GDDR5 to it's absolute limits, power consumption be damned even.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

SvennoJ said:

Eventually yes, but I don't think anything higher than 4K headsets will be viable for ps5, and spread over 110 degrees that compares to 720p in the center at the very most. Probably less as that likely won't be 4K per eye. Besides expecting next gen to render native 4K x 2 at minimum 60fps without any hitches is still a tall order. Memory speed will need to go up a lot as well to use 24GB effectively or those high res textures will just be a bottleneck.

Yet to future proof for a ps5 pro, 32GB would be better. Or perhaps 16GB for games, 8GB for the OS. That's still over 3 times more than games get now.

4k? nope not gonna happen. I expect PSVR 2.0 to be running at 2160x1200 max rez or 1080x1200 per eye as we have with OR or VVR right now. And other tricks to be used to get things looking as smooth as possible. It will be the best way to make the most out of console hardware thats targeting 4k@30fps gaming. Will also be a significant upgrade from the current PSVR rez right now.

Errorist76 said:

One thing one has to consider though...Even in 2-3 years not even 50% of people will own a 4K TV or will have the possibility to get one, additionally to their shiny new 4K console.

Are 12-15 Tflops really needed for a highly detailed 4K/30 performance?! 

I still think 10-12 seems possible for PS5, but higher Tflops would be more needed for VR than for 4K imho.

4k TV adoption is happenning a lot faster, and not even because people want one, but because manufacturers arent even making 1080p sets most times anymore. So if you are buying a 55" tv today, you are kinda getting a 4k set by default. Secondly, consoles have to be future proofed. 

And as i have said before.... as long as the PS5/XB2 is made with chips on a 7nm process (as opposed to the 14nm in the PS4pro/XB1x) having at least double the GPU is a given. So the minimum to expect from the next gen consoles is a 12TF GPU. And no one should expect to see the next gen consoles until whenever 7nm chips start hitting the market. If that doesn't happen till 2021; we won't see the consoles till 2021/2022....

I also feel we could have an even far better GPU in these consoles if they go with a split architecture... and I have lots of reasons to believe this is what will happen. Especially with the PS5. To put it in perspective APU in PS4 with a 20CU GPU cost around $130. About the same or hell say $150 for a APU with 40CU in the PS4pro on a smaller node fab process. A split system with a $40 CPU and a $140 GPU on a 7nm fab process will probably have a GPU with at least 130CU pushing around 16-18TF