By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Americans take their political system for granted.

I've been researching the government of the UK and the Parliament -- talk about a clusterfuck. Americans, including myself, have bitched about our system but it's leagues above what could have been.

The House of Lords, basically the equivalent of the Senate, has 793 seats! Why is it so big?! In the US Senate each state has 2 representatives, so currrently 50 states, totalling 100 seats. In the House of Commons, basically the equivalent to the House of Representatives, there are 650 seats! In the House there are 435 seats, which are divvied up by population of each state (every state has to have at least one, even if they're tiny) so California, by far the largest state, hold 53 seats. This assures that large states don't carry too much weight, and that small states aren't disregarded.

Honestly, it'd probably be wise for the UK to adopt the system the US uses -- it'd alleviate concerns of non-English citizens in the UK that England carries too much weight (one of the reasons Scotland wante to secede) -- but it also doesn't penalize England for having a large population.

This has made me realize that our political system isn't at fault, it's the politicians and the citizens who vote for them.



"On my business card I am a corporate president. In my mind I am a game developer. But in my heart I am a gamer." - Satoru Iwata

Around the Network

Yeah. we have 535 people who need to find new jobs...



Ask stefl1504 for a sig, even if you don't need one.

The American system is deeply flawed and very undemocratic. The 'winner takes all' method ensures only 2 parties can be in power. It's basically a Democrat-Republican tandemocracy



WolfpackN64 said:

The American system is deeply flawed and very undemocratic. The 'winner takes all' method ensures only 2 parties can be in power. It's basically a Democrat-Republican tandemocracy


It's the citizens job to maintin the government. We've failed somewhere along the way. Our forefathers warned of political parties from the beginning.

"... is itself a frightful depotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism."

- President George Washington's farewell address, regarding political parties (1796)



"On my business card I am a corporate president. In my mind I am a game developer. But in my heart I am a gamer." - Satoru Iwata

BraveNewWorld said:

I've been researching the government of the UK and the Parliament -- talk about a clusterfuck. Americans, including myself, have bitched about our system but it's leagues above what could have been.

The House of Lords, basically the equivalent of the Senate, has 793 seats! Why is it so big?! In the US Senate each state has 2 representatives, so currrently 50 states, totalling 100 seats. In the House of Commons, basically the equivalent to the House of Representatives, there are 650 seats! In the House there are 435 seats, which are divvied up by population of each state (every state has to have at least one, even if they're tiny) so California, by far the largest state, hold 53 seats. This assures that large states don't carry too much weight, and that small states aren't disregarded.

Honestly, it'd probably be wise for the UK to adopt the system the US uses -- it'd alleviate concerns of non-English citizens in the UK that England carries too much weight (one of the reasons Scotland wante to secede) -- but it also doesn't penalize England for having a large population.

This has made me realize that our political system isn't at fault, it's the politicians and the citizens who vote for them.

I believe the House and Senate are no longer a valid form of governing such a large population, that's constantly connected/online.  The only benefit is that it's easier for big business to bribe/influence 535 people.  The House and Senate should be dissolved, this particular House/Senates lifetime benefits should be revoked.  The US Gov't should then setup a voting system where the populace is responsible (that whole pesky participitory Democracy thing) to read literature on proposed legislations/amendments, and then have monthly votes (more or less, if necessary), tied to their SSN#.  If you're too busy to read up on it, tough shit.

We'd still elect a President and VP, for foreign affairs.  Replace Congress/House with think tanks responsible for keeping their thumb on the pulse of the public (which is where the proposed legislation/amendments come from).  

Seems extreme, sure, but it should be a no brainer that 535 people cannot speak for ~311 million, nor has Congress of the past 4 or 5 terms shown in any way that they're trustworthy.



Around the Network
WolfpackN64 said:

The American system is deeply flawed and very undemocratic. The 'winner takes all' method ensures only 2 parties can be in power. It's basically a Democrat-Republican tandemocracy


It's not the winner takes all that's the problem, it's the method of voting we use, though that can actually very significantly state to state and even county to county. Some have an instant run off system where all voters don't just pick a signle candidate out of many.

There is also the gerrymandering, where if one party is in power in a state at the census they can make districs that put all the other party into few very consentrated districts. In the 2012 elections there were more votes for Democrats in the house than for Republicans but Repulicans held onto control of the house.

there is the primary systems that usually lead to much more partisan candidates in the general election instead of more moderates. Though that has changes in California

there is the flilibuster in the senate where 41 votes can stop there actually being a vote. So it takes less than all the senators of 21 states to stop a vote. The 23 smallest states have a population about the size of California.

 



BraveNewWorld said:
WolfpackN64 said:

The American system is deeply flawed and very undemocratic. The 'winner takes all' method ensures only 2 parties can be in power. It's basically a Democrat-Republican tandemocracy


It's the citizens job to maintin the government. We've failed somewhere along the way. Our forefathers warned of political parties from the beginning.

"... is itself a frightful depotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism."

- President George Washington's farewell address, regarding political parties (1796)

We have in many places a system where politicians pick voters, not voters picking politicians, and it's so much easier to keep the status quo than to change it, especially for those in power.

Congress is ususally very upopular but, most of congress are in dristrics where they are at least popular there.



Ka-pi96 said:
mornelithe said:

I believe the House and Senate are no longer a valid form of governing such a large population, that's constantly connected/online.  The only benefit is that it's easier for big business to bribe/influence 535 people.  The House and Senate should be dissolved, this particular House/Senates lifetime benefits should be revoked.  The US Gov't should then setup a voting system where the populace is responsible (that whole pesky participitory Democracy thing) to read literature on proposed legislations/amendments, and then have monthly votes (more or less, if necessary), tied to their SSN#.  If you're too busy to read up on it, tough shit.

We'd still elect a President and VP, for foreign affairs.  Replace Congress/House with think tanks responsible for keeping their thumb on the pulse of the public (which is where the proposed legislation/amendments come from).  

Seems extreme, sure, but it should be a no brainer that 535 people cannot speak for ~311 million, nor has Congress of the past 4 or 5 terms shown in any way that they're trustworthy.

But then you are opening yourself up to a whole nother problem. I don't think the majority of eligible voters are really smart enough to choose the correct representative, so I certainly don't think they'd be smart enough to vote on legislation directly. You say about reading up on it, that's all fair enough, but how many people will vote regardless of doing that? Not only that, how do amendments to legislation get made if people are voting directly on it? That's what the politicians are for, amendments have to be made by them, either to get the legislation through in the first place by getting enough people to vote for it, or even just to expedite the process.

Amendments would be proposed by think tanks as the need arises.  And you're right, most of the electorate is too lazy to research this stuff, I would imagine, they'd also be too lazy to go and vote once a month (or whatever period).  Which, hopefully, would cut most of those useless idiots out of the equation.  I consider that a win win.  It's an imperfect system, but with a bit of thinking/retooling, it would be better than what we have now.  And it would cut lobbyists right out of the equation as well.  It'd simply destroy the lobbying industry, which is just fantastic.



Ka-pi96 said:
mornelithe said:

Amendments would be proposed by think tanks as the need arises.  And you're right, most of the electorate is too lazy to research this stuff, I would imagine, they'd also be too lazy to go and vote once a month (or whatever period).  Which, hopefully, would cut most of those useless idiots out of the equation.  I consider that a win win.  It's an imperfect system, but with a bit of thinking/retooling, it would be better than what we have now.  And it would cut lobbyists right out of the equation as well.  It'd simply destroy the lobbying industry, which is just fantastic.

But who would decide who is in the think tanks? And would there be anyone to oppose any amendments?

Cutting those people out would be a good thing yeah. It does sound like a promising system, although I'm just not sure it would work on such a huge scale. At a smaller local level yeah it sounds workable, but for countrywide, or even statewide legislation it may be a bit difficult.

Bolded: As I said, it's an imperfect system and would require some thought.

I think it's really the only way to have everyone's voice heard.  Because right now you have Boehner in the house who's limited votes on legislation to himself or his chosen representative, and then you have Harry Reid in the Senate stonewalling the GoP in a Government-sized game of tit for tat.  The only other alternative, is to literally burn it all down.  Revolution style, and start from scratch.  And the American public is far too divisive currently for anyone to actually carry such a movement out, without turning on each other in the process.  Or...the status quo, which has no hope of changing anytime soon, regardless of who's President, or who controls the House/Senate (unless both are a supermajority for the Presidents party, but you still have massive financial influence playing fuckery).  No matter what side of the aisle you consider yourself on, I certainly hope the American public realizes that the next time there's a Republican President, they're going to do the exact same thing that the GoP has done for the past 6 years.  And if there's another Democratic President after Obama, you can bet your ass it'll be more of the same.  The GoP laid the framework for how to be thoroughly and completely obstructionist.  The Democrats are no better...they're just in power at the moment.



BraveNewWorld said:

Honestly, it'd probably be wise for the UK to adopt the system the US uses -- it'd alleviate concerns of non-English citizens in the UK that England carries too much weight (one of the reasons Scotland wante to secede) -- but it also doesn't penalize England for having a large population.

In Spain Catalonian nationalist parties have been part of Spain's government several times and look how well it's working...